Gauntlet thrown down....Pedal vs paddle ;)

Ok...so I didn't want to hijack that other thread so I started another one...

I think this could be fun and educational (at least for me and my ego...). I'm 46 years old with a bum knee carrying an extra 25lbs around my waist (my new years resolution is to get rid of the spare tire or at least go from a 275 75 R17 to 225 50 r15) just to set the stage (and start making excuses for myself)

In total fun, sportsmanship, and to answer the "age old question" of pedal vs paddle:

I'll put $100 bet to any one paddler willing to take me on. ($200 winner to donate it to the Mooch foundation). We should get a 'bookie' for side bets where a good cut goes to the Mooch foundation.

As this is an argument on which propulsion method is 'superior' (and not which kayak is better) I think it fair that already considering the Pro Anglers 'fat ass' and inefficient lines in the water that the opposing kayaker match my boats  'Hobie' published weight (fitted weight of 138lbs which includes seat, mirage drive, hatch buckets, etc.) with one, two, or whatever it takes sandbags. I'll bring the scale and we can weigh in both kayaks before.

Where: Lake Almanor, boat launch at the dam
When: After GS7 (last week of May or early June?) Early in the morning (this could take all day) say 7am until sun down.

Details:

Start together at the boat launch at the dam (point 'A') and pedal/paddle to the Power house on north shore (point 'B') and back and forth. Time differences between the two kayaks measured at both points with some landmark/buoy agreed upon. Should any kayak fall behind by more than 1 hour at point A or B, the contest is over. Kayaker in the lead at sun down is the winner.

I'll be trolling too (dont want to waste an entire day out on the lake without fishing!!!). We'll need timer volunteers at Point A and B (anyone want to do a days worth of shore fishing at the dam and at the powerhouse?)

So there you have it. I've put my foot in my mouth yet again. This is serious, but in total fun and hoping to meet and make friends with more NCKA members...

-Murf

How about a kind of a ironman of kayaking.
We have multiple events to test all kayaks and anglers
Sounds like fun, maybe the making for a great NCKA Event.
Let me work on this and I might sponsor the first NCKO (NorCalKayakOlympics) and don't worry, I will be fair to all kayaks by having a judge from all brands on the panel.

As for your challenge,
I would be glad to give it a go but to be fair, it would have to also include a second part wher we would navigate a river or kelp forest to show the true ability of the yak or angler. All kayaks will shine as the best if we narrow the testing criteria.
Your lake challenge is as one sided as my river challenge and would prove nothing.

I would like to see a tug of war between the two, heck even a tug of war between two different hobbies.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=D0rvFdLdplA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DD0rvFdLdplA
Here's the mirage drive engineer vs an Olympic paddler back in 97 I think? When the mirage drive was first launched.

As for your challenge,
I would be glad to give it a go but to be fair, it would have to also include a second part wher we would navigate a river or kelp forest to show the true ability of the yak or angler. All kayaks will shine as the best if we narrow the testing criteria.
Your lake challenge is as one sided as my river challenge and would prove nothing.

We have to work within the limitations of the equipment so the idea of navigating a river or kelp forest is not, generally speaking, within the capabilities of the equipment.  I believe most would agree that a body of water too shallow for the drive & obstructions (ie kelp) are not the intended use of the Hobie Mirage Drive.  I think the indended gauntlet he threw down was endurance/distance.

Out of pure fareness, every kayak has its intended uses ... otherwise there would be no reason for us to own more than 1

"I would be glad to give it a go but to be fair, it would have to also include a second part wher we would navigate a river or kelp forest to show the true ability of the yak or angler. All kayaks will shine as the best if we narrow the testing criteria. "

My initial statement was the energy efficiency benefits of the mirage drive over paddling...had nothing to do with anything but that and I was challenged on it. I'll be the first to admit I'll suck on a river and navigate...whats that? Going backwards...no way. And I have been stuck in kelp before...I'm a newbie kayak and wouldn't stand a chance on overall true ability against a veteran kayaker...for that I'll bow down...I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy...

This is simply mirage drive vs paddling in clear water. Which is superior from an energy and power stand point..something I thought was obvious, but perhaps not...

-Murf

Wow that video was something else...as only having experience in a canoe, I new the mirage drive was something very special the first time I took it out on the water...but that video was very impressive.

-Murf

Ok, I will admit that in open water the marage drive can produce more propulsion. I personally don't believe this is because it is a superior system, but rather because it uses larger muscles than a paddle (thigh vs sholder). This again is like compairing a 10 hp vs a 50 hp outboard. At a steady 4 mph, you will outlast me soley based on muscle mass used. Now at trolling speed (1.5 - 2.0), that might be a fair race.

"Ok, I will admit that in open water the marage drive can produce more propulsion. I personally don't believe this is because it is a superior system, but rather because it uses larger muscles than a paddle (thigh vs sholder). This again is like compairing a 10 hp vs a 50 hp outboard. At a steady 4 mph, you will outlast me soley based on muscle mass used. Now at trolling speed (1.5 - 2.0), that might be a fair race."

We're mostly on the same page. Not saying one is better than the other at everything. I do look forward to getting another kayak and it wont have a mirage drive...I was trying to outline some benefits of the Hobie PA14 in the original post. I know that I personally could last far longer pedaling because my legs are far more powerful than my upper body (not even close for me....and something I'll be working on with that other yak as paddling is a far better workout especially for your upper body, balance, and mind...you can pedal mindlessly for hours, I think you're WAY more connected to the environment/surroundings and using your balance and mind far more by paddling...at least that's how I feel in a canoe...almost Zen-spiritual if you get my drift - and there is allot to be said for that...which is my main motivation for getting another yak.

But I do believe the mirage drive is a more efficient system too (nothing to do with muscle mass) your direction is completely and totally forward with no lost energy pushing to the left or right with each stroke which is lost in a conventional yak. This lost energy , I believe, is significant over a 8-10 hour day of paddling. Everything is a engineering compromise somewhere down the line, like getting stuck in kelp, shallow water, going backwards, extra weight, failure of a mechanical component a mile from shore, etc., etc.

What I do love about our hobby is our shared enthusiasm in getting on the water and fishing - our love of the sport and the fellowship we share on this board. I was never trying to put down paddlers...I have total respect for paddlers and will join their ranks soon (hoping for another yak this summer)

-Murf

I'll race your new PA in my crappy old Revo.

While I think the mirage drive is an amazing form of propulsion, I do think that hobies in general because of the mirage drive have a very inefficient hull design, and if you were to look at calories burned in a hobie versus a paddle yak In a mile run I'm almost thinking that the hobie takes more energy to move. 

Let me start by saying, I'm not trying to start an argument here. Since you "back peddled" on your original statement and decided to build a completely different challenge and statement. Anyone can paddle all day at 2mph. No brainer. 6 mph, no problem for me. 4 mph? I have paddled OVER 4 mph for well over an hour. Work? Yes. Hard? Yes. Impractical? Yes. Mirage drive is more efficient due to what Eric said. Not paddling straight? My boat is perfectly straight at high speed and low speed. No rudder. Your original statement of paddlers not making it as long as a peddler is very inaccurate. I need to get to the water or I would continue. Mahalo, Rob

Just saw the last post before I finished this. Agreed on that one too.

While I think the mirage drive is an amazing form of propulsion, I do think that hobies in general because of the mirage drive have a very inefficient hull design, and if you were to look at calories burned in a hobie versus a paddle yak In a mile run I'm almost thinking that the hobie takes more energy to move.

That's an easy test to do....HRM as proxy. Use the same person for both tests.

In fairness, why should the challenging kayak have to be the same as your kayak.  A sea kayak paddled tradionally would run circles around your peddle pusher.  A sea kayak  IMHO would most likely get there first, merely based on its coeffiency, which your boat lacks (for that matter so does my hobbie quest), go to something that is fiberglass or kevlar forget it, it would not be fair to you. Make it an open challenge, and I will see if GF will race you (she has a 15 year old sea kayak). I am thinking her little 5 foot frame would smoke you.  It is n't all muscle mass, it is also technique.