AOTY C&R

I am not going to cast my vote because as Craig has stated the AOTY rules are always made behind closed doors and the participants do not have a voice so why bother.

How many fishing derbies does one actually have any say in anyways?  We do listen, but ... we can't please everyone all the time.  We try to do our best.

-Allen

Jim not really about abking it's more about how others feel about ESA Fish. I have entered ESA fish as have others most steehead coming from the Russian. I never really thought about it before, after getting to know some people on the site that know a lot more about fish than I will ever know.
I have changed my views and will never enter another one again. It just takes the fun out of AOTY for me. That Wally World story you told, I have seen that many times and I firmly believe that if you catch Salmon you are targeting them. I have no problem with Abby targeting ESA fish I just don't feel we should post it up.

How many fishing derbies does one actually have any say in anyways?  We do listen, but ... we can't please everyone all the time.  We try to do our best.-Allen

Allen, for the record I was not whining. Merely stating the facts. I know you always do your best. But since you have now stated that you will listen to concerns re:AOTY I will relate mine soon. 

Mike, I hear you and respect where you are at. Having never fished for any steelhead at all I am not as sensitive about the issues regarding this fish. Bluefin17 seems to be an expert re: them and I wish he would weigh in. I was hella pissed about that kid's admission's /bragging though. That little fker!  jim

When a format has been established for a tournament. Then turned on its heels, I would believe that the people who have supported the said contest would be informed as to the change. You see Allen only AFTER Jan 1st 2010 and some entry money was paid by people the format changed. You dont do that shit in the middle of the stream and expect it go smoothly. Now if it were said, say in November of 09," we are going to have some changes that include the addition of 10 new specie and the reduction of points for steelhead", People would have had a chance to say Ok I like it or I dont. Choices. Thats why this thread that Mike started is so cool. We can have input as to where we want it to go concerning this matter. The people who participate.  By the way, does anybody have any other reccomendations for Albions format? If you do PM me and we can discuss it openly by starting a thread.

And yet Craig, you are happily afflicted by the bug and are in a neck and neck race to the finish  Good luck buddy!!!   

-Allen

Hey I thought salmon weren't legal on the Russian are you talking about steelhead"

Jim thanks for that can we really blame the kid ? When he sees the tackle shops guys and more experienced fishermen doing it. I've heard all the excuses.

I'm fishing for Steelhead.
Everybody else is doing it so why not me.
SCWA doesn't want us fishing it so they can grab more water
I'm not hurting the fish
I bring them in real fast so I don't stress them
DF&G/NOAA don't know what they are talking about historically there never were very many Salmon in this river.
I'm fishing them to raise awareness
There are plenty of fish in this River

I blame NOAA and DF&G for not setting clear Guidelines that don't allow interpretation.

If I look at the E-mails that the Feds sent Eric I read that it is Illegal to Target Salmon on the Eel just not being enforced a lot like the pot laws maybe it's a Humbolt thing, but I can understand that the Kid you talked to is confused. It's mostly about Greed not the Fish as is most of our world, if we don't set an example no one else cares.

I really wish Joe/BF would join us but he Works for the Feds now so it could take 9 months to 13 years and counting

I know at times I have sounded like a Hypocrite and have offended some(FF,AG,AK) but for that I apologize.

I'm Thankful to be able to have this dussion

Have a Great Thankgiving all.

And yet Craig, you are happily afflicted by the bug and are in a neck and neck race to the finish  Good luck buddy!!!   

-Allen

Oh yes Allen I am. In a most serious way. I have come to embrace the format now. Especially after a greenling and a WSB. I love all of AOTY. Its exciting, humbling,disappointing,happy,sad,frustrating,tiring,and most of all challenging. I wouldnt trade it for the old way now at all.I would love to hook an oversize sturgeon, points or no points.

Art why do you even care? you have been a member longer than most have never shown any intrest in AOTY

Because I volunteered myself, as did others, to double check fish measurements, scores and ensure that entered fish were in season and dfg legal.  I also field questions and check on fish that people ask me to take a second look at. I have taken part in the comp before but did not participate this year because I wanted to remain objective and free from any complaining.  Is that enough interest for you?

My stance is that its hypocritical and irrational to allow voluntary C&R species to be recorded and disallow mandatory C&R fish.  Theoretically, I do not believe that its ethical to allow undue stress to one fish and get all warm and fuzzy about another, the PETA'ish tactics don't work for me.  

In a non-hypothetical world I think its absolutely stupid to disallow any DFG legal fishing and favor maximizing opportunities for our anglers.  You are correct in stating that I don't river fish and I cite personal reasons for not taking part in the fishery.  I do however support those who do, why the hell should I not?  They are doing their thing just like I do. Not everybody enjoys the same opportunities to participate so rather than prevent anyone from playing I'd rather give them the opportunity to get their fish on and get in on the race.  

Ultimately the AOTY race does not dictate that people fish mandatory C&R waters.  The AOTY race does not dictate that people cause "undue stress" to fish by photographing them next to a tape.  The AOTY race does not dictate that anglers participate in unethical behavior.  

WTF happened to plain old personal responsibility?  I believe the buck stops with the angler and its up to the angler themselves to determine whether or not what their actions are right or wrong.  Fish do not HAVE to be pursued on certain waters, fish do not HAVE to be entered in the race.  Its that simple.

silly comments why don't you tell us how you really feel or is this just part of your Global Moderation? I did respectfully ask that only AOTY guys respond

When I see silliness I will respond with it.  Personally, I don't have a problem with bloody decks as I'd prefer to have mine plastered red instead of the clean off white of a deck that has no fish landing on it.  

If we're gonna address silliness how about we start with the fictitious headlines you posted and realize that NCKA will not make headlines unless a shark is involved.  Realistically we are the only ones who care about this at all and anybody who makes the kind of connections you stated likely has their tin foil hat on so tight anyway that they wouldn't want to see the truth.

Your original post said not to VOTE if you're not participating.....I have refrained from doing so.  

I know at times I have sounded like a Hypocrite and have offended some(FF,AG,AK) but for that I apologize.

If FF is me, absolutely no offence was taken. The only time I don't enjoy these discussions is when they get personal/nasty rather than dwelling on ideas. As for being a hypocrite, welcome to the club. None of stand up to that accusation too well if you really get down to it... it's more an issue of hard hard we cling to our hypocrisy. 

The subject is getting little muddled. Is this about not stressing ESA fish, or Eric's fishing in the Eel, or a West coast AOTY, Sturgeon <g> or  ... a little bit of everything? Maybe this is naive, because amongst this crowd I certainly am, but why are ESA species on the AOTY list in the first place? It's not like there aren't enough species otherwise.

Ben

Ben it's about all those things that's what makes us us. I didn't want to make it about the Eel but I would be lying if I said that wasn't part of it,we have the same issue's on the RR it's just a little clearer down here.

I believe that any catch that is allowed by the State of California should be allowed by NCKA.  Thus, if C&R is allowed by the state of CA, those activities should also be allowed for AOTY.

There are enough restrictions on what we can do in CA, lets not make up some more for us kayakers because following the law may result in additional mortality of fish beyond the C&R that most of us do anyway...


silly stuff

Thanks Art it's great to get differant opinions and you don't disapoint ,lot of food for thought in your post.
 I am Thankful for what you guys do thanks for shedding some light on it. Have you guys disallowed any fish?
Have a Great T-Day

Great points in your last post Art!!!

-Allen

I agree with art's points, as I normally do. Same line of thought as I had, which might just change his mind   

I think the best point made in this discussion was how the world will look at us as we move forward with our AOTY competition.  To stay the same in the face of a changing world and changing perceptions is to claim that we are right in some way, or that we don't care.  Fact:  most people on this board who've criticized lifting an ESA fish out of the water or targeting them has done so themselves.  MORE IMPORTANT FACT:  those same people have made changes to their personal fishing MO's based on the changing nature of all of this - including me.  Are we going to leave this up to the honor system?  By that I mean to illuminate the possibility that someone in the competition will enter something like a 50 pound Eel salmon - TOTALLY LEGAL BY DFG STANDARDS.  Will those who honor these ideas be happy sharing the glory and prizes with someone who chose to (legally) enter a big giant ESA fish?  If we wouldn't be happy with an outcome like that then why not take away the option?

I think it's time we make the change to accept only fish that can be kept in the AOTY competition, and I hope California changes the law to not allowing a fish to be released to be removed from the water, just like WA and OR.