Kayak Police Patrol

The sea lions are starting to get managed.  When 71 known repeat offenders in the lower columbia killed too many salmon, they are targeted for elimination.

-Allen

The "management" of sealions is as it pretty much has always been:  In times of abundance (good ocean production) they over produce to reach carrying capacity.  Once carrying capacity has been reached, they starve and the population decreases.  This is a fundamental concept of ecology from streams, to oceans, to forests, and to humans.  All populations do this and the natural management is predation and/or starvation.  It's the way things work.  Abundance in all species is cyclic and variation is the norm.

Starving sealions does not in itself mean there is anything wrong.

Or do you guys believe that I am more of a problem than Jerry?

jim

I think it was your comparison that got me going, but I modified my post because I don't want any bad blood about it.  I just wanna be nice.  

Yes, that's very tongue-in-cheek to say, but really, I feel that your extreme position on environmentalists and your over-simplifying of others' personal preferences, reasoning and choices (your poll and the references to being nice...etc.) compelled me to respond.  I hope you can take my POV as polite feedback.  

I hope YOU can begin to listen to my POV. You may have edited out your personal attack against me but you did make one for whatever reason. I was asking a question and not making a comparison. Polite feedback my buttocks. Hey Admin! Don't ever ban anyone for making personal attacks on me. If that's what it takes to keep these important discussions rolling then it's all good. Eric you went on to tell everyone how you planned on treating seals. Kinda brutal stuff IMO but maybe you're right about all of that. Now you're the one accusing someone else of attacking you? How funny. What a comedian. I hope you are never banned. Your reports are among the best and you're just a funny guy. Love you dude and I'm loving your new "tone" as well. Hope you score an ocean salmon soon. jim

The "management" of sealions is as it pretty much has always been:  In times of abundance (good ocean production) they over produce to reach carrying capacity.  Once carrying capacity has been reached, they starve and the population decreases.  

In an attempt to steer us back onto the track....and because I actually think this is a worthy and beneficial discussion.
Good points, Dave. But I wonder how much this dynamic is influenced by us. It seems like the natural carrying capacity is extended/expanded due to our meddling (or, non-meddling)...throwing things out-of-wack [haha I said "wack"  ] thus creating more extreme variations from the norm.
PK

It's been a banner year for 'dines.  I can't remember seeing this many off our coast.  Why are the sea lions starving?  I know they are feeding on them because they are always there in the middle of the schools.  There have been a ton of stripers too, more that I can remember in recent times.  So the salmon are missing ... but that is due to "ocean conditions" (the natural order of things).

-Allen

Enviros blame commercial overfishing. Ton's of fish out there. We know that. I don't know why but here's a article with some guessing as to why. Maybe a combo of higher than normal birthrate leading to too many mouths to feed with the available fish within range of the haul outs. Interesting that they are dumping Jerry's Kidz from Monterey up here at P.R. jim

http://blogs.kqed.org/climatewatch/2009/07/02/starving-sea-lions-a-climate-connection

It seems like the natural carrying capacity is extended/expanded due to our meddling (or, non-meddling)...throwing things out-of-wack [haha I said "wack"  jerk] thus creating more extreme variations from the norm.

Yep. Like it, or not, we are part of the eco-system... a BIG part.  We kill seal predators, eat seal food, use seal habitat etc etc. So we, rightly, try to correct in favor of seal population growth, but, wrongly, ignore the same kind of corrective course for predation when those populations get too big.

There would be nothing "wrong" with just letting things take their natural course in the form of boom/bust populations... if you don't mind seal carcasses on the beeches and docks. I think it's our aversion to animal suffering, and desire to hunt, that drives herd management for deer and such. But that happens mostly out of the public view.  And I don't know that a number exists that is considered healthy for seal populations.

I guess we have drifted away from the Jerry encounter as the subject... but it's interesting.

Ben

i was there, this is what really went down!!

But we have stayed on track and come full circle.
 The dialogue about the fact of starving and overpopulated sea lions mocks Jerrys pretense at protecting furbags....and rightly pissed off a yakker who had enough of pretense and tokenism from one too many wannabie environmentalists.

Perhaps the human driven part of the salmon decline has led to something wrong in sea-lion life. Sardines feed the fast and healthy ones right now but perhaps salmon were needed to keep the lions more robust during other portions of the year. They need food all months of the year not just in this "boom-sardine" period.

Maybe we kept too many weaklings alive and in a state of dependency. Perhaps our "protected harbors" allowed them to loiter in easy water, freeload, loaf and then starve.
Once outta whack...natural cycles perhaps also stay outta whack and evolve into still more sad scenarios.

Perhaps poor Jerry is just a lightning rod for bigger issues brewing. A silly one just in the wrong place as reality set in for one of us.
 Steve

That's def 'food' for thought.

i was there, this is what really went down!!

Now, THAT is some funny shit!!!!!
 

Thanks for the very interesting thread...I really enjoy hearing everybody's different perspectives and opinions...

Sincerely,

Jim

Justice or crime? You tell me.

If we were going to be technical, if you break the law it's a crime.

If you are being "moral" it would be a crime (immoral) to kill the seal if it were one of a very few. Conversely, it is immoral to ask a native American to sacrifice his livelihood because the over-population of seals hasn't been addressed in our laws.

Ben

In my mind I pretend to be a hungry Native American who needs to hunt fish for a Fish N Chill hookup with my NCKA tribe  . My main competition for fish is the seal (cute, pet like wild creatures) which are protected by a dominant tribe that makes the rules and determined that fishing must be shared with the seals. Okay that's cool, we can share with the seal. We both have to eat. The problem is.. the seals never leave! They're always hanging around where dominant tribe says I'm allowed to hunt for fish. I'm not allowed to drive the seals away so I go hungry and showed up at the Fish N Chill empty handed  . One afternoon I was so hungry and tried to catch fish but a dude from dominant tribe named Jerry reminded me for the 5th time that I must share with the seal. Instead of walking away to be nice with the seal I THOUGHT about doing this to the seal  but I didn't. I instead did this to Jerry  .

Someday I hope to show up at the Fish N Chill with  .

The wife asks;
" Hey, doesn't that guy [ Jerry ] eat fish?"

Of course...but the karma cleansing new eco-proto type eats fish that a business kills and sells to the Monterey Bay Aquariums restaurant.
That way he stays pure, sincere and committed to the oceans salvation.
Perhaps he even carries the Packard funded Marine Stewardship Councils little fish ID card telling him what " certified" fish to eat.
 This way he steers clear of an impulsive ingestion of Patagonian toothfish or New Zealands orange roughy.
Steve

Are those seals living permanently on those docks?

That's nuts.  I'm all about living with nature and all that, but would you let a bear sleep on your sofa? 

but would you let a bear sleep on your sofa?

Eric. I take offense to that remark  (and so would the rest of the "UCOSA"  = United Community Of Snoring Anglers....da Nor Cal chapter)


Joel = bear =