COVID After Effects

Good morning!

(drags gasoline can)...

https://www.britannica.com/science/Dunning-Kruger-effect

Interesting. Just saying...

Fred "True" Trujillo

Theres obviously a lot to parse out here.  The response of the governments of the world to the covid-19 pandemic are ripe for criticism and scrutiny.  Following the money and comparing to climate change doesn't really move the ball forward when we are talking about the efficacy of vaccines.  The efficacy of vaccines is actually measurable.

From Washington state this morning:

https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

COVID-19 Cases, Hospitalizations, and Deaths by Vaccination Status
January 12, 2022
Summary
Unvaccinated 12-34 year-olds in Washington are
• 3 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 12-34 year-olds.
• 8 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 12-34 yearolds.
Unvaccinated 35-64 year-olds are
• 4 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 35-64 year-olds.
• 11 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 35-64 yearolds.
Unvaccinated 65+ year-olds are
• 6 times more likely to get COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.
• 11 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ yearolds.
• 15 times more likely to die of COVID-19 compared with fully vaccinated 65+ year-olds.


This is in line with other compiled data, it's just the most recent one I found while reading my morning news.  I acknowledge that correlation does not imply causation, but these numbers should be eye opening.  If vaccination status alone doesn't account for the wildly different outcomes, then what does?

Covid 19 vaccinations is a numbers game, and the numbers tell a compelling story - get vaccinated.  Everything else is noise.

Keeping me focused, thank you.  My big picture take is probably not the focus of this thread though I believe the response to this "pandemic" has caused more fear, division, profit, bankruptcy, isolation, addiction, suicide and the future generations of youth as a symptom of covid.
The freedom to weigh risk for those we love is barely hanging on...kinda like putting on my oxygen first before tending to others on a plane.  I'm still weighing natural immunity strength vs. this "vaccine" and waiting on a "true" vaccine that they didn't have to change the definition for.  Stinkin' numbers keep changing.   Like separating out how many deaths "with covid" vs. how many "from covid". I would be curious your take on these stats. Keeping the dialogue goin'...

https://openvaers.com

Well said Eddie!

A few notes from the real world

1) The numbers are going up again and hospitals are currently operating with abundance of caution

I am curious about your take (and it is strictly my curiosity, no agenda, no stand, no other motive than just being curious).   How could we measure that we are winning the covid war?  The current environment is that we have vaccinated and non-vaccinated, people are more open to go about normal live (either because of vaccinated, already got it, or whatever other reason), and we have had the vaccination for arguably awhile.  So, do we measure it by case severity on infected people?  I suspect that the number of infections will keep rising and I would think that it is no longer a good indicator if we are making progress or not.  Yes, I understand that increasing infections are important, but now the populations are more vaccinated or had covid already.   

What do you think?  Feel free not to answer, I mean who has time for flames ......

Keeping me focused, thank you.  My big picture take is probably not the focus of this thread though I believe the response to this "pandemic" has caused more fear, division, profit, bankruptcy, isolation, addiction, suicide and the future generations of youth as a symptom of covid.
The freedom to weigh risk for those we love is barely hanging on...kinda like putting on my oxygen first before tending to others on a plane.  I'm still weighing natural immunity strength vs. vaccines and waiting on a "true" vaccine that they didn't have to change the definition for.  Stinkin' numbers keep changing.   Like separating out how many deaths "with covid" vs. how many "from covid". I would be curious your take on these stats. Keeping the dialogue goin'...

https://openvaers.com

From the disclaimer on opernvaers.com:

VAERS CDC Disclaimer

Source: VAERS.HHS.GOV

VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.

The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.

Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

    Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
    Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
    The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
    VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
    VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

VAERS data available to the public include only the initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which contains data from medical records and corrections reported during follow up are used by the government for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including data consistency, these amended data are not available to the public.

I had a co-worker in another country that was not providing the vaccine for it's population.  She traveled to Florida to get herself vaccinated, and received the first shot. However on her trip she also contacted COVID.  With the first shot she had no protection from receiving it since she hadn't had the second.  She was in the hospital for 3 months, and her doctors told her family at one point that she wasn't likley to survive the night, and to pray for her.  Thankfully she did make it through that terrible night, and very slowly started to heal.  She was out for 6 months, and though survived, she is still struggling with long hauler symptoms and may never be the same again.  So because she got infected at the time of the shot, she would fall into the bucket where she is being reported as impacted by the vaccine?  No, it's just correlation, not causation.

Keeping me focused, thank you.  My big picture take is probably not the focus of this thread though I believe the response to this "pandemic" has caused more fear, division, profit, bankruptcy, isolation, addiction, suicide and the future generations of youth as a symptom of covid.
The freedom to weigh risk for those we love is barely hanging on...kinda like putting on my oxygen first before tending to others on a plane.  I'm still weighing natural immunity strength vs. vaccines and waiting on a "true" vaccine that they didn't have to change the definition for.  Stinkin' numbers keep changing.   Like separating out how many deaths "with covid" vs. how many "from covid". I would be curious your take on these stats. Keeping the dialogue goin'...

https://openvaers.com

From the disclaimer on opernvaers.com:

VAERS CDC Disclaimer

Source: VAERS.HHS.GOV

VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.

The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.

Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:

    Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
    Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
    The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
    VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
    VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

VAERS data available to the public include only the initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which contains data from medical records and corrections reported during follow up are used by the government for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including data consistency, these amended data are not available to the public.

I had a co-worker in another country that was not providing the vaccine for it's population.  She traveled to Florida to get herself vaccinated, and received the first shot. However on her trip she also contacted COVID.  With the first shot she had no protection from receiving it since she hadn't had the second.  She was in the hospital for 3 months, and her doctors told her family at one point that she wasn't likley to survive the night, and to pray for her.  Thankfully she did make it through that terrible night, and very slowly started to heal.  She was out for 6 months, and though survived, she is still struggling with long hauler symptoms and may never be the same again.  So because she got infected at the time of the shot, she would fall into the bucket where she is being reported as impacted by the vaccine?  No, it's just correlation, not causation.

Thanks for the reply, I'm not that educated or logical so I get to wing it and get corrected or confirmed in my navigation of a worldview.  One of the unfortunate changes in providing a solution to this pandemic was not having the time or studies available to save the human race resulting in a certain number of deaths making the public the test subject.  The FDA would stop moving forward with 5 -50 deaths when a vaccine was released at any moment in time.  This mRNA technology is progressing with a price, yet not sure what that is yet...

A few notes from the real world

1) The numbers are going up again and hospitals are currently operating with abundance of caution

Meaning we’re all working in what is probably excessive PPE even in non-covid situations, nobody with anything remotely resembling covid symptoms is allowed to work or even visit their family members. Strict screening is done both on line and then at the door of the hospital

2) The medical community is made up mostly of really smart and dedicated people. They will pull out all the stops to save you or your child, whatever your choice was about vaccination. If there was any information suppressed, treatment prevented or anything withheld from the bag of tools needed to treat covid or any other medical condition the medical community would know it and would have been rioting a long time ago

Any doctors making that kind of claim should be looked at with extreme distrust and called on the carpet whatever their credentials happen to be

Doctors are human and there are some crazy ones out there. These are people with medical degrees who take really questionable stances on medical issues and become advocates for questionable and harmful practices. They tend to emphasize their credentials more than would normally be necessary and can sound very credible

I can speak from personal experience on that one, a hematologist and neurologist who shared unorthodox ideas and approaches to my own serious medical condition almost did me in. I’ve also been privy to other situations some of which ended very badly. These are all people with medical degrees and going practices, a big red flag is when it’s them against the establishment

3) People are dying from this virus despite the best efforts and hard work of the really smart staff who go in and sweat it out on their behalf. Many of those people either chose to be unvaccinated or parents made that choice for them. The same principles apply whether it’s covid or measles or polio. There are some really tragic situations people have to deal with as a result


There’s so much bullshit floating on the airwaves that a person could be forgiven for being confused or taken in about conspiracies etc, but believing nonsense and spreading it are two different things

Thanks, I always appreciate your perspective.

Saddest part of this whole thread is the fact that the media and many of our government officials have already won. They have made it OK for people to judge, hate, and discriminate other members of OUR society because they are or aren't vaccinated. If you treat another human differently because of their vaccination status - YOU are discriminating them, and that is no different than racial discrimination!!! There is nothing wrong with sharing information, hoping to win someone over, but if they choose to believe something different - GREAT!!! that is what FREEDOM is all about.

YOU are discriminating them, and that is no different than racial discrimination!!!

I hear ya, but it's just kind of different... You can choose your vaccination status. You cannot choose your race. Michael Jackson and Rachel Dolezal tried both opposite ends of that.

... unvaccinated folks though…the same segment of American society who refuse to accept science/math/facts is generally uneducated ...

And then there is this: "People with a PhD are the most hesitant when it comes to getting the Covid-19 vaccine, according to a paper by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/americans-with-phds-are-most-reluctant-to-get-vaccinated-against-covid/ar-AANjRHh

Thanks for the reply, I'm not that educated or logical so I get to wing it and get corrected or confirmed in my navigation of a worldview.  One of the unfortunate changes in providing a solution to this pandemic was not having the time or studies available to save the human race resulting in a certain number of deaths making the public the test subject.  The FDA would stop moving forward with 5 -50 deaths when a vaccine was released at any moment in time.  This mRNA technology is progressing with a price, yet not sure what that is yet...

I get you, and I understand your worry for you and your family's health.  Your an NCKA braddah and a lot of fun to interact with, so I just want to try and help.  But giving you more information probably doesn't help, i'm not really sure what would.  All of the deaths associated with the vaccine are reportedly rare: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html  That doesn't mean they don't exist, but that the percent chance is very low.  Still it could, and I understand how people want to reserve their right to go forward with it, or take their chances when they eventually contract the virus.  It's not an easy choice to make with your family health on the line.  But out of the 469 million people that received the vaccine, how many died from it?   Well a lot less is all I can tell you, but it's very hard to quantify.  This page trys to, but I cant say if it's accurate: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination

... unvaccinated folks though…the same segment of American society who refuse to accept science/math/facts is generally uneducated ...

And then there is this: "People with a PhD are the most hesitant when it comes to getting the Covid-19 vaccine, according to a paper by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/americans-with-phds-are-most-reluctant-to-get-vaccinated-against-covid/ar-AANjRHh

Don't you know?  Doctors make the worst patients! 

... unvaccinated folks though…the same segment of American society who refuse to accept science/math/facts is generally uneducated ...

And then there is this: "People with a PhD are the most hesitant when it comes to getting the Covid-19 vaccine, according to a paper by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/americans-with-phds-are-most-reluctant-to-get-vaccinated-against-covid/ar-AANjRHh

I believe it says only    23.9 percent of the 10,000   who claimed to have a PhD     

   "  surveyed just over five million US adults in an online survey, with 10,000 reporting that they were educated to PhD level.
  Of those ( 10,000 ),  23.9 per cent with a PhD were against it.  "
    So,,,, 76%  with PhD's are for it. 

     

Like separating out how many deaths "with covid" vs. how many "from covid". I would be curious your take on these stats.

I think distinguishing between "with covid" and "from covid" is very important, but it should be on a "but for" basis.  Dying "from covid" should mean that "but for covid, the person would most likely be alive today".  So that would include people with co-mormidities like obesity, advanced age, compromised immune systems and the like, who were surviving just fine until catching a case of the coronavirus.  That is to distinguish from folks who died of something like an advanced stage cancer, a car accident or other trauma, things where covid wasn't a factor at all.  This whole notion that only 6% died "from covid" and the rest were just "with covid" is disingenuous.  "But for covid", almost all of them would not have died when they did.

As for the open vaers data, its intentionally overreported.  It includes folks who died in a car accident on the way home from getting vaxxed and everything else under the sun.  The raw numbers aren't particularly useful.  Pattern analysis is useful, and there isn't anything there to cause alarm as far as I am aware.  That is more or less explained in the CDC disclaimer.

And then there is this: "People with a PhD are the most hesitant when it comes to getting the Covid-19 vaccine, according to a paper by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/americans-with-phds-are-most-reluctant-to-get-vaccinated-against-covid/ar-AANjRHh

I remember doing this survey when it popped up on my Facebook feed a long time ago. Yeah, it was a Facebook survey where they asked for your education level, ethnicity, etc. I have a feeling that not all of those 10k who claimed they had a PhD did, in fact, have a PhD.

FWIW, I'm always tempted to make stuff up on Facebook surveys, but I was mostly honest with that one...I think. I'm interested to see how the peer review goes, it looks like the researchers noticed a "concerted effort" that “did make the hesitancy prevalence in the Ph.D. group look higher than it really is.”


source: https://www.wnct.com/news/north-carolina/fact-check-setting-the-record-straight-on-claims-about-vaccine-hesitancy-among-ph-d-s/