Tournaments and Trolling Motors

Those new E-bikes are gaining popularity. Do you think they should be allowed in bicycle races?

      You're not comparing apples to apples.    If it was an event where bicycles were used to hunt mushrooms,,,, would you find more mushrooms because you had an electric bike?   
      I don't think  Fishing skills are compromised by using an electric motor anymore than a pedal drive gives  an advantage over a paddler. Probably less of a difference if anything.     One of best things I like about the Simply Fishing tournament.    Everybody is on the same level.

Yes it is a poor comparison. If we were talking about using a trolling motor in a kayak race it would have meaning. Then we're back to the comparison of a Hobie to a bicycle and the mechanical advantage it has. I think it's reasonable to say there is some advantage to having a trolling motor in a tournament just as there is an advantage in having a Hobie.

For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side. 

Those new E-bikes are gaining popularity. Do you think they should be allowed in bicycle races?

      You're not comparing apples to apples.    If it was an event where bicycles were used to hunt mushrooms,,,, would you find more mushrooms because you had an electric bike?   
      I don't think  Fishing skills are compromised by using an electric motor anymore than a pedal drive gives  an advantage over a paddler.

Well, yes it does. If an electric boat can go farther and return more quickly.....A crucial part of any derby is making it back for weigh-in deadline.  Faster boat means you can go farther for productive fishing grounds and/or can spend more time fishing.

Says the man who has witnessed cry-babies calling foul when they arrive to the weigh-in late.

Bushy

Fishing skills are compromised by using an electric motor anymore than a pedal drive gives  an advantage over a paddler. Probably less of a difference if anything.

In some situations, yes.  But a motor would make 6-8 hours of salmon trolling seem a helluva lot less daunting, wouldn't it?

That 16-mile round trip out to the Pacific halibut grounds wouldn't look so daunting either if you could use a motor to push you half the way there.

A lot of us got into kayak fishing because of the sense of accomplishment that comes with it.  Salmon and Pac halibut are waaaay easier to target and catch with a powerboat.  But many of us are not in this just to catch fish.  Similar to how a hunter takes pride in killing their own game: it would be much easier to simply buy your food at the market, but they're not in it just for the animal.  We intentionally makes things more difficult for ourselves because we enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes with it when we hit our target.  You can see it everywhere: the live bait fisherman who moves on to fly-fishing-only, the rifle hunter who picks up a bow, the commuter who leaves the car at home and commutes to work on their bicycle, the power boater who sells the boat and buys a kayak.  This isn't a tiny phenomenon.  It's in our nature to challenge ourselves.  Read the salmon reports through the NCKA archives: we don't say "I trolled over ten miles today for a skunk but it was worth it" in those reports for nothing.  We say it because we're proud of what we accomplished.

For those of us who take pride in our "do it yourself" attitude, adding a motor to a kayak is a step backwards.  It makes things easier.  It reduces the sense of accomplishment.  Yeah, I perceive a big fish caught from a paddle kayak more highly than I do of one caught from a pedal kayak.  Pedal kayaks provide more technical advantages over a paddle.  As folks have said ad nauseam through this thread, the motor doesn't provide many advantages over a pedal-driven kayak...except for reducing work on the user.  Just like how a rifle makes it easier for the bow hunter, or a live minnow makes it easier for the fly fisherman.  Do we feel more proud of something we worked hard for, or something that was handed to us?

Do pedal drives have advantages over paddle kayaks?  They sure do.  But I would hazard a guess that over half of the active anglers in NCKA use pedal-drive kayaks.  How many pedal-drive kayaks do we see at tournaments these days?  They usually outnumber the paddle kayaks.  But I didn't buy a pedal kayak to make things easier on myself.  I bought it for the technical advantages it provides over a paddle: the ability to have the rod in your hands while moving, to hold a position in wind or current, the ability to rip plugs for brown trout, etc.  Stuff that is straight-up impossible from a paddle kayak, but entirely do-able from a kayak with a motor on it.  If I was dead-set on just plain catching fish, I'd buy a power boat.  But that would reduce the challenge, and reduce my sense of accomplishment.

It's one thing to move from powering a kayak with your arms to your legs.  It's a whole different thing to move from powering your kayak with your own sweat and grit to having a machine do it for you.  I can only speak for myself, but I imagine I'm not the only one here who thinks this way: a motor would take away my sense of accomplishment of catching a big-ass fish.  If a guy with a motor-driven kayak wins a kayak tournament, they will always have that little asterisk that comes with the win of "they won but they used a motor".  Who wants to have that little asterisk come with their win?

For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side. 

Welcome to at least 10 years ago

Did you just get 56k modem recently?

Those new E-bikes are gaining popularity. Do you think they should be allowed in bicycle races?

   

Well, yes it does. If an electric boat can go farther and return more quickly.....A crucial part of any derby is making it back for weigh-in deadline.  Faster boat means you can go farther for productive fishing grounds and/or can spend more time fishing.

Says the man who has witnessed cry-babies calling foul when they arrive to the weigh-in late.

Bushy

     Very good point !
 

Does Baitman have to feel the shame of not having a do-it-yourself attitude when he uses a motor on his kayak?

Fishing skills are compromised by using an electric motor anymore than a pedal drive gives  an advantage over a paddler. Probably less of a difference if anything.

In some situations, yes.  But a motor would make 6-8 hours of salmon trolling seem a helluva lot less daunting, wouldn't it?

That 16-mile round trip out to the Pacific halibut grounds wouldn't look so daunting either if you could use a motor to push you half the way there.

A lot of us got into kayak fishing because of the sense of accomplishment that comes with it.  Salmon and Pac halibut are waaaay easier to target and catch with a powerboat.  But many of us are not in this just to catch fish.  Similar to how a hunter takes pride in killing their own game: it would be much easier to simply buy your food at the market, but they're not in it just for the animal.  We intentionally makes things more difficult for ourselves because we enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes with it when we hit our target.  You can see it everywhere: the live bait fisherman who moves on to fly-fishing-only, the rifle hunter who picks up a bow, the commuter who leaves the car at home and commutes to work on their bicycle, the power boater who sells the boat and buys a kayak.  This isn't a tiny phenomenon.  It's in our nature to challenge ourselves.  Read the salmon reports through the NCKA archives: we don't say "I trolled over ten miles today for a skunk but it was worth it" in those reports for nothing.  We say it because we're proud of what we accomplished.

For those of us who take pride in our "do it yourself" attitude, adding a motor to a kayak is a step backwards.  It makes things easier.  It reduces the sense of accomplishment.  Yeah, I perceive a big fish caught from a paddle kayak more highly than I do of one caught from a pedal kayak.  Pedal kayaks provide more technical advantages over a paddle.  As folks have said ad nauseam through this thread, the motor doesn't provide many advantages over a pedal-driven kayak...except for reducing work on the user.  Just like how a rifle makes it easier for the bow hunter, or a live minnow makes it easier for the fly fisherman.  Do we feel more proud of something we worked hard for, or something that was handed to us?

Do pedal drives have advantages over paddle kayaks?  They sure do.  But I would hazard a guess that over half of the active anglers in NCKA use pedal-drive kayaks.  How many pedal-drive kayaks do we see at tournaments these days?  They usually outnumber the paddle kayaks.  But I didn't buy a pedal kayak to make things easier on myself.  I bought it for the technical advantages it provides over a paddle: the ability to have the rod in your hands while moving, to hold a position in wind or current, the ability to rip plugs for brown trout, etc.  Stuff that is straight-up impossible from a paddle kayak, but entirely do-able from a kayak with a motor on it.  If I was dead-set on just plain catching fish, I'd buy a power boat.  But that would reduce the challenge, and reduce my sense of accomplishment.

It's one thing to move from powering a kayak with your arms to your legs.  It's a whole different thing to move from powering your kayak with your own sweat and grit to having a machine do it for you.  I can only speak for myself, but I imagine I'm not the only one here who thinks this way: a motor would take away my sense of accomplishment of catching a big-ass fish.  If a guy with a motor-driven kayak wins a kayak tournament, they will always have that little asterisk that comes with the win of "they won but they used a motor".  Who wants to have that little asterisk come with their win?

I also feel the sense of "manly" accomplishment from human powered kayak fishing. I understand what you're talking about. Using a motor would subtract some from that part of the kayak experience. However that is not the be all and end all of my kayak fishing experience. I imagine there were plenty of people saying a tournament won with a Hobie needs an asterisk. Being able to hover is a huge advantage over using a paddle. Speed and range are increased as well. A Hobie is an advantage getting back for weigh in also. A Hobie is human powered and it suits your argument to focus on that as the only advantage that matters. I totally understand having a sense of pride, even superiority in doing it all with human power. Not everyone is right there with you. I think there is room for people that aren't completly driven to use only human power. I completly support a tournament that wants to prohibit the use of a motor or everything but paddles. I just don't really understand the feeling I get from some of the posts that sound holier than thou and anyone that doesn't meet the standard should be outcast. Anyone different than me is in a basket of deplorables so to speak. I would support you if you said "I take pride in using only human power to catch fish. I don't want to use a motor." There seems to be a looking down on people that might choose to use a motor. If you don't do it the same way I do you're not acceptable. However I guess it is part of the human condition. If we look around the world we see people have so many reasons to exclude others as not up to snuff. There is no reason our small subset of people on the forum should be any different. I never got to meet Mooch. I wonder if he would welcome or reject the differences.

For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side. 

Welcome to at least 10 years ago

Did you just get 56k modem recently?

No I got it 18 months ago when the video looks to be posted. Is that supposed to be a slam? I googled and found a video that wasn't posted yesterday so it needs your condemnation. There must be something more meaningful you can point and laugh at.

For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side. 

Welcome to at least 10 years ago

Did you just get 56k modem recently?

No I got it 18 months ago when the video looks to be posted. Is that supposed to be a slam? I googled and found a video that wasn't posted yesterday so it needs your condemnation. There must be something more meaningful you can point and laugh at.

I understand the video was posted 18 months ago but people have been doing that for years with their Hobie's.

Man I feel like I'm talking to a baby or something  . Back to fishing

FYI at the port right now and yes I released the fish. Yes I'm Asian too!

This whole discussion is moot. It's always up to the Tourney directors.
As for me I know I need the exercise. That's why I have a kayak instead of a power boat.

For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side. 

Welcome to at least 10 years ago

Did you just get 56k modem recently?

No I got it 18 months ago when the video looks to be posted. Is that supposed to be a slam? I googled and found a video that wasn't posted yesterday so it needs your condemnation. There must be something more meaningful you can point and laugh at.

I understand the video was posted 18 months ago but people have been doing that for years with their Hobie's.

Man I feel like I'm talking to a baby or something  . Back to fishing

FYI at the port right now and yes I released the fish. Yes I'm Asian too!

People have been doing it for years so try to make fun of it.  What do you do when you're not fishing, troll the Internet and make fun of grammar and spelling errors?

What does Asian have to do with anything?

I also feel the sense of "manly" accomplishment from human powered kayak fishing. I understand what you're talking about. Using a motor would subtract some from that part of the kayak experience. However that is not the be all and end all of my kayak fishing experience. I imagine there were plenty of people saying a tournament won with a Hobie needs an asterisk. Being able to hover is a huge advantage over using a paddle. Speed and range are increased as well. A Hobie is an advantage getting back for weigh in also. A Hobie is human powered and it suits your argument to focus on that as the only advantage that matters. I totally understand having a sense of pride, even superiority in doing it all with human power. Not everyone is right there with you. I think there is room for people that aren't completly driven to use only human power. I completly support a tournament that wants to prohibit the use of a motor or everything but paddles. I just don't really understand the feeling I get from some of the posts that sound holier than thou and anyone that doesn't meet the standard should be outcast. Anyone different than me is in a basket of deplorables so to speak. I would support you if you said "I take pride in using only human power to catch fish. I don't want to use a motor." There seems to be a looking down on people that might choose to use a motor. If you don't do it the same way I do you're not acceptable. However I guess it is part of the human condition. If we look around the world we see people have so many reasons to exclude others as not up to snuff. There is no reason our small subset of people on the forum should be any different. I never got to meet Mooch. I wonder if he would welcome or reject the differences.

Dude, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I'm merely stating it how it is.  You ask a hard question like this, and you should expect hard answers.

Prejudice is everywhere.  The hardcore fly-fishermen that snub their noses at the guy drowning worms on his boat.  The muzzle-loader hunters who scoff at the hunters with semi-auto rifles.  The hybrid-vehicle drivers who look down on the guy using their gas-guzzling V8 pickup to commute to work.

But guess what: most of those people getting scoffed at don't care!  I don't give a damn if that fly-fisherman scoffs at me drifting a chunk of roe for steelhead.  Does it really matter that I might look more highly upon the guy who paddled or pedaled his ass out onto the ocean and came back in with a monster halibut, than the powerboater that brought in the same fish?  Do whatever you want, most people are preoccupied with their own lives to care.  But when you're involving tournaments, it's different.  People are competing against one another.  And you can't tell me that a 20 pound salmon caught from a human-powered kayak is going to be looked at as equivalent to the 20 pound salmon caught from a motor-driven kayak.  That's not reality.

You constantly bring up pedal-drive kayaks as if a motor-driven kayak should be treated the same way.  For the umpteenth time, they are not the same.  Quit it, nobody's buying it and you're never going to convince me because I can easily shoot down every one of your arguments.  Look at it from a tournament director's point of view: over half (at least) of the active people on this site use pedal kayaks.  Most of those people enjoy the idea of getting to use their pedal kayaks in a tournament.  So a tourney director is going to change their rules to accommodate for maximum participation.  Simply Fishing is a great change from the norm, but it's a unique thing among kayak tournaments.  Name more tournaments that share the Simply Fishing format of paddle-kayak-only.

Tie this back to what Fishcomb mentioned: "I understand the video was posted 18 months ago but people have been doing that for years with their Hobie's." Fishcomb, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think he's saying is that this ability to strap a trolling motor onto a kayak has been around for a very long time, even before pedal-drive kayaks were even invented.  But just how many kayaks do we see out there today with motors strapped on them?  It's a tiny minority.  So you're asking for a tournament director to change the rules to placate a minority, and very likely piss off the majority (and by majority, I mean the people who actually care about the rules and are actively aiming to win).  How much bitching have you heard over the last several years about "those damn pedal-drive kayakers" in the popular kayak tournaments?  It might have been a thing over a decade ago, but nowadays people seem pretty cool with it.

You talk about the big surge in specialty kayaks built for motors.  Sure, there will be a market for them.  But these motors are going to be technologically superior to the trolling motors (which you've repeatedly mentioned are feeble and come with too many problems, and are about on par with a pedal system), to the point where all those guys with the human-powered kayaks will feel obligated to get one if they want to keep up in a tournament.  The "do it yourself" crowd I mentioned earlier isn't going to like this, and there will be significant animosity and calls for human-powered-only kayak tournaments to help level the playing field.

Your final few sentences show your true colors with your original post.  You made a point to claim you are unbiased on this whole motor thing a gajillion times in this thread, but look at how many times you've gone out of your way to defend motors (mostly by claiming they're the same as pedal kayaks, which nobody is buying), then count how many times you've supported their exclusion from tournaments (which you've mostly done via quoting the person with encouraging words, and not your own original thoughts).  It's very lop-sided to the former.  And now with your final few sentences, you're fishing for sympathy points.

People judge.  Life is unfair.  Tough shit.  If you want a tournament to allow motors, then start one.

For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side. 

Welcome to at least 10 years ago

Did you just get 56k modem recently?

No I got it 18 months ago when the video looks to be posted. Is that supposed to be a slam? I googled and found a video that wasn't posted yesterday so it needs your condemnation. There must be something more meaningful you can point and laugh at.

I understand the video was posted 18 months ago but people have been doing that for years with their Hobie's.

Man I feel like I'm talking to a baby or something  . Back to fishing

FYI at the port right now and yes I released the fish. Yes I'm Asian too!

People have been doing it for years so try to make fun of it.  What do you do when you're not fishing, troll the Internet and make fun of grammar and spelling errors?

What does Asian have to do with anything?

Not making fun of it just making fun of you for posting something that has been done for years. "For all the Hobie guys that are ready to go beyond the dark side." Ugh. I'm done here. 

Yeah that's the point.  Talking about Tourneys.  Just fishing, use whatever you want, who cares?  Tourneys,  not so much. No motors allowed in a kayak fishing tourney.  Or sails.

ps Clayman, you forgot to mention the Spey guys who look down on the regular fly guys.  Love to hook up with my spinning setup right in front of the spey guys who wouldn't say hello back to us.....

Bushy