Another kayak Marlin

As I always tell everyone I meet.  I have never met a kayak angler that I didn't like or that I felt was a jerk in any way.

And Chris even means me I think which shows incredible tolerance on his part

Of course wait until we set the date for the O'Neill Forebay Striper Smackdown MBF tounrey--then the gloves *really* come off  .

LOL!

Actually there is good news on the swordfish front.  I will have to try and find it, but some recent data I saw on that fishery has it back on the rebound.

Its all good.  (and you get bonus points for using latin in the discussion!  love it)

MolBasser

For smaller fish, holding them vertically by their lips is probably going to be fine.  And you're right Chris, holding them horizontally by the lips with out support is going to do some damage.  But if it's a fish you plan on eating anyway... who cares.

However, for very large fish it has been shown that holding a fish by the lips vertically can harm their internal organs and potentially dislocate their jaw.  There was an article about this in Salt Water Sportsman a couple years ago.  I'll try and dig it up.

Probably the best method for catch and release is to never actually take the fish out of the water such that their own weight doesn't harm them. 

With that said, I think Jim's landing method from a kayak of such a large fish was well executed.  Obviously, if he had unhooked the fish in the water and let it go, that would have been best.  But come on.. how many of us would pass up such a photo op?   If that fish had been caught from a larger power boat, it would have had to been hung vertically much longer with much more of its weight shifting around.  His release method seemed decent too, helping water flow over the fish's gills until it had recovered some of its strength.

Brian

Actually, the way some folks treat bass that are going to be released really ticks me off. Professional B.A.S.S. fisherman in particular. But I guess a fish is just a paycheck to them. I certainly do not treat fish that will be released in that manner. And I do lip vertically. Or wet my hands and then cradle the fish to pull a hook, or if possible, just leave the fish in the water.

So now that I've claimed the moral high ground, I too have to say that after watching the video, I too was concerned about the fish's health. First of all, the duration of the fight, then the "glory shot". Which by the way is different than free jumping, in that the weight of the animal is not resting on a gunwhale or someones knees when it is jumping. And then there's the O2 deprivation issue. I bet you are a big healthy guy Jim. Similar to a Marlin in body mass? But just how good would it be for you to run for your life for two hours, and then have someone put a gag in your mouth, and plug one nostril. Then let you sit that way for a couple minutes. Then scrape off the outer layer of your body that protects you from bacterial and fungal infection.

In many professional fields, there's a concept of "standard of care" or something similar. Such that if you deviate from that standard in a negative manner, then you can be held liable for losses. It seems to me, that unless kayak fishers targeting billfish are able to reasonably approximate the "standard" for billfish C&R, then perhaps we best not be targeting billfish? How about a 1 hour fight, tag the fish, and cut the leader without the fish leaving the water. It's how the Power Boaters that really care about the resource do it. Otherwise, if you are into the whole "sleigh ride" phenomenon, why not just rent a jet ski, or take your kayak surfing?

Regards,
Scott

I bow to the verdict that the C&R was well-executed from our resident 'fish nerd', unrepentant habitual tourney winner, and all-round 'nice guy' withteh big belt buckle, Brian/Steve/whatever his real name is  (jsut kiddign I know its Brian )

Actually, the way some folks treat bass that are going to be released really ticks me off. Professional B.A.S.S. fisherman in particular. But I guess a fish is just a paycheck to them.

Word.  The majority of them (unfortunately) do not care for the fish.  Swinging a bass onto the carpet of the boat while break dancing on the bow..... 

MolBasser

I found a link to that Saltwater Sportsman article...
http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/saltwater/fishing/article/0,12746,608838,00.html

I also checked on the author, Justin Grubich.  It seems he has a PhD in fish biology and has published many papers on fish jaw structure and feeding morphology.  Oh yeah, and according to the article he claims to be an avid fisherman.  Sounds like he knows what he's talking about to me.

Brian

If that fish had been caught from a larger power boat, it would have had to been hung vertically much longer with much more of its weight shifting around.  His release method seemed decent too, helping water flow over the fish's gills until it had recovered some of its strength.

Nope.  Most marlin released never leave the water with the wireman reaching down to the fish and billing it, before removing the hook, and then towing the first more than a few seconds until the fish brightens up.  I've had to tow fish for up to 15-20 minutes before to really revive them.  You can see them revive, from a dull brown/grey look to bright white lit up with neon streaks on their sides and fins.

-Allen

Good article.

Hyper-extension of the jaw can also damage the jaw’s closing muscles, located in the cheeks. For example, if you tuck your elbow against your body when lifting a fish, stretching forces caused by the fish’s body weight can tear the muscle fibers and tendons attached to the lower jaw bone and cause dislocation of the saddle joints. These kinds of injuries will prevent the fish from being able to quickly close its jaws during future feeding, which may allow its prey to escape.

The use of “lip grippers” and weighing devices, which do not necessarily hyper-extend the jaw, can still dislocate this critical joint in bigger fish and can potentially tear the jaw-opening muscles of the throat that attach to the inside of the lower jaw tip. Injury to these muscles and attachment sites will reduce the fish’s ability to generate suction for feeding. Lip-gripping devices should be used primarily to control the fish’s head so that you can place your other hand underneath the body to cradle it. Bottom line: only hold the fish vertically when measuring its weight is absolutely necessary.

This is the point I am trying to make.  When you hyperextend the jaw you really are messing with it as lipping in a horizontal position.  For largemouth, they do not typically weigh enough for the verticle position to exert enough force to damage the jaws.

MolBasser

Hey Scott, I have a website for you too...

http://www.fishinghurts.com 

Just kidding of course... I do think we should do our best to reduce C&R mortality and generally prevent waste and I feel a forum like this is a great place help educate others about proper technique. I'll start a sticky post on the "FishTalk" forum here to help get the word out.  I'd like it if kayak fishers were considered more like trout fly fishers rather than pro bass fishers in terms of awareness of C & R issues.

Brian

Allen,

You're right of course (glad someone here constantly keeps me in check), but I guess my point is that if for some reason you absolutely had to get that glory shot, doing it from a kayak seems much better than doing it from a large power boat.  Having not participated in any billfishing myself, what's the policy on C&R.  It does seem that all the pros do the tag and release in the water thing during tournaments, and good for them.  But what about Joe Public that goes to Cabo and wants to catch a marlin?  Do they go home with just a few photos of them in the chair and maybe one of the wireman reaching down to rease the fish? Or do they occasionally pull a smaller marlin up for that photo op?  Just curious really, I thought it might be more of that later.

I guess a better solution in this case would have been for the mother ship to get closer and take a good "Matt Moyer holding onto the marlin in the water shot next to the kayak" shot.  I'm not sure whether this would have been as satisfying for Matt, but the most famous kayak marlin shot out there is the one where Jim is getting the sleigh ride and the fish is still in the water.

Brian

Cabo is a bit of a beast.  Many charters there will, as a matter of course, pull a marlin up for the glory shot.  As a matter of fact, you need to be crystal clear with the deckhands BEFOREHAND if you want the marlin released or not pulled up, or else they'll just do the deed.  In many ways, Cabo is behind the times with regards to standard C&R release practices for billfish.  Hawaii is another area that is a bit behind as they routinely keep marlin for commercial sale.  In fact, on most boats in Hawaii, all the fish caught are the property of the boat and get sold commercially, except for perhaps some fish immediately bound for the anglers dinner plate.  Hawaii is getting better though, with many charters now practicing good C&R techniques on billfish.

And yes, the the way Jim handled pulling up the billfish appeared to be very conscious of the fish's health, and certainly is better than pulling one up and over the gunwhale of a PB.  That fish more or less slid up onto their laps.

-Allen

Brian,

I admit that my own personal ethics are pretty convoluted. Catch a fish, kill it, eat it - ok. Catch a fish, don't kill it, but treat it badly, then release it - not ok (unless by "treat it bad" you mean "use it for bait", then it's ok) And then there is the resource scarcity issue as well, in that fish that are under more pressure, not necessarily by recreational fishermen(people), tend to get more respect. Then there's the whole "who cries for the tuna" thing (everyone cries for Flipper, why not Charlie?)

The concensus among trout fly fisherman is that you want to land the fish ASAP. I believe that this is backed up by science. Can you confirm or deny. How applicable would this be to other species?

As for the link - I go there quite a bit. I just hope that it is generating ad revenue for Bill


Regards,
Scott

ST<edited to remove preachiness>

There is a constant trade off in our sport.

Welfare of the fish vs. our enjoyment of catching them.

Where the pointer ends up in each of our own personal scales on this issue is our own decision (within the law).

MolBasser

So, what about the use of slings for big fish, like the sharks in our Paddlefest tournie?

I say make it mandatory next year. I'll be putting up a web site where you can buy crane arms and winches for your kayaks and I'll offer half off on installations for the first month.  Also, no mroe gaffing--you haveto wear a wetsuit, dive in, and wrestle the fish abaord unaided by anyone else. Kevlar-lined gloves are highly recommend--I'll put them on special a month before the derby