I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

3,500 americans where mudered on 9/11. I would call that an act of war.

Except it wasn't declared by Iraq. We should stay on health care, but you just demonstrated the logic that is weighing down the health care debate, being used by the same people, interestingly.


Crash, [tune up music] you say Socratic, I say Sophistic, let's call the whole thing off.

I think it comes down to where you stand on whether or not health care is a basic human right

Well, no it doesn't come down to this straw man argument. It comes down to whether or not we as a nation want to make it right. It's like asking if voting is a basic human right. C'mon.

We should make it a right, with the attendant responsibility of carrying health insurance. Not just from a moral point of view, but also because we largely try to plug that hole today by telling hospitals they may not turn people away. And then those costs get recycled to all the other paid treatments in the hospital ($25 aspirin) while the hospital chases down those "bums and moochers" in bankruptcy court -- rather than spreading those costs to the entire population as insurance should. If that isn't screwed up and inefficient enough to make you want to change it, what is?

I need evidence of a free-market breakdown

While far from scientific, watching my insurance premiums triple+ over the past 10 years, while inflation accounts for 20-30% of that, is enough. Simply knowing that millions (I'll let you, with your statistical wizardry, choose how many millions, Crash) simply cannot afford insurance/health care just reinforces that belief.

What it takes for you to see the need is a true mystery, but I'll wish you luck on your journey.


Ben

I removed my own post because it made no positive contribution to the discussion at hand.

This is ridiculous, once an insurance company is treating someone for a disease they cant drop them, that is against the law in every state.

What you are saying is that due to his MS he can not work, that has nothing to do with health insurance.

Please make up your mind.

I do understand your confusion though. What is happening is that the real world is conflicting with the claims of the industry propaganda that you read.

Lets talk about the socially conservative things that are forced upon us then, and where do you stand on such issues as:

Drug legalization?
Gay marriage?
Abortion?
Gambling (internet and otherwise)?
NAFTA?
Prayer in school?
Seatbelt laws?
Helmet laws?
Legal immigration?
Illegal immigration?

A simple one sentence response to each just to get your pulse is fine.
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I believe in freedom to do as one choose, just dont pass the costs or conqueses onto others.

Drugs legal after age 21.

Gay marriage..yes with one condition, Happiness is the greatest treasure in life as long as you do no harm to others. The condition is that a gay couple can not adopt kids. Not because they wont make good parents but because the kids would be teased horribly in school and that would damage their lives. Kids well being comes first.

Abortion and Gambling its your body and your money do with it what you wish.

Prayer is school ..hell no, religion belongs in church.

Nafta to complex an issue for a one liner

Immigration. We are all immigrants, anyone can come here and work hard to make it but they cant come here to leach off the system. I am always blown away at how hard to Mexican grape pickers work, i like to help with the grape harvest at a friends vineyard. I would hire them in a heartbeat if i start another business, if i could legally.

Seatbelt and helmet laws, your choice but the cost at the emergency room hits us all so its necessary. Damn seatbelt tickets are expensive.

Orgies, swing parties, lots of sexy naked women for my fun YAHOOO!!!!!!!

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I like it when you get so excited that you forget to check your spelling, but at least you're trying to hit all the scare tactics now instead of just health care reform, I think you may have missed a few though, keep trying.

And this doesn't belong here but it's smoething I know about, Cap and Trade is a great idea and if done properly it can clean the air and allow for economic growth at the same time, of course having the government regulate anything seems to scare you to death so you stop considering that it might be a good idea.
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I am not getting excited, I had my own business for most of my life. My admin took shorthand so i never had to type, part of having to work 60 to 70 hours a week. My typing sucks but oh well you all get the idea of what i am saying.

Drugs legal after age 21.


Seatbelt and helmet laws, your choice but the cost at the emergency room hits us all so its necessary.

People on drugs pose no fiscal consequences to ALL of society?

  

1.  Healthcare is not a basic human right.

Interesting concept.

Your dream world:
Remove health care from all prisons.
Remove health care from Child Services.
Remove health care from the US military
Close all public hospitals
Close all paramedic operations
etc.

In fact we might as well close down the US Coast Guard while we are at it. I mean, what's the point of going out and plucking people out of the water if they don't have the right to be treated.

One point. Morality can’t simply be ignored because it wasn’t specifically codified in the Bill of Rights. We as a society have already clearly decided that health care is a right by our actions.

[Drugs legal after age 21.



[/quote]


People on drugs pose no fiscal consequences to ALL of society?

  
[/quote]

At this time they do, so once again we have a complex issue, right now recreational drug users have to pay the price for those who abuse drugs.
Then we get into what is a drug? beer, pot and so one.

1.  Healthcare is not a basic human right.

Interesting concept.

Your dream world:
Remove health care from all prisons.
Remove health care from Child Services.
Remove health care from the US military
Close all public hospitals
Close all paramedic operations
etc.

In fact we might as well close down the US Coast Guard while we are at it. I mean, what's the point of going out and plucking people out of the water if they don't have the right to be treated.

One point. Morality can’t simply be ignored because it wasn’t specifically codified in the Bill of Rights. We as a society have already clearly decided that health care is a right by our actions.

Now where did i say any of this.

Now where did i say any of this.

Your name isn't "crash".

At this time they do, so once again we have a complex issue, right now recreational drug users have to pay the price for those who abuse drugs.
Then we get into what is a drug? beer, pot and so one.

So along the same line of thinking; at this time we are only paying the price for people that don't use a seatbelt/helmet and get in crashes.  Those of us who skip the seatbelt and don't crash are getting penalized for it.    Mix in a little logic next time.  

1.  Healthcare is not a basic human right.

Interesting concept.

Your dream world:
Remove health care from all prisons.
Remove health care from Child Services.
Remove health care from the US military
Close all public hospitals
Close all paramedic operations
etc.

In fact we might as well close down the US Coast Guard while we are at it. I mean, what's the point of going out and plucking people out of the water if they don't have the right to be treated.

One point. Morality can’t simply be ignored because it wasn’t specifically codified in the Bill of Rights. We as a society have already clearly decided that health care is a right by our actions.

Well, interesting effort to put words in my mouth, but this isn't at all complex.

Remove health care from all prisons. - Once freedom is taken away, the state has an obligation to provide health care.
Remove health care from Child Services - leave it up to the states, no federal mandate.
Remove health care from the US military - this is a part of the compensation package for joining the military.  The military needs to be compete with private sector employers.
Close all public hospitals - why?  If a state or municipality wants to run a hospital, let them.
Close all paramedic operations - what?  These are private enterprises.

In fact we might as well close down the US Coast Guard while we are at it. I mean, what's the point of going out and plucking people out of the water if they don't have the right to be treated.

- S&R is not all that large a part of the Coast Guard's function.  This statement is pretty silly.

1.  Healthcare is not a basic human right.
2.  It should be available based upon what you can negotiate in the marketplace or what may be provided charitably.

Also, what is a basic human right that should be provided by the government by involuntary taxation?

A system of law enforcement, judicial and military protection in place to allow for free enterprise, freedom from graft, corruption, and other criminal enterprise, freedom from unfair marketplace competition, protection of overseas interests and protection from foreign invaders.

Whats the difference between these things are healthcare? Why should the market (for everything besides healthcare) not just be allowed to run free from government intervention? Why should I have to pay the government for protection from foreign invaders? Why can't I just buy my own defences? Why should I have to pay for policing of people who choose to live in areas that experience high crime?

1.  Healthcare is not a basic human right.
2.  It should be available based upon what you can negotiate in the marketplace or what may be provided charitably.

Also, what is a basic human right that should be provided by the government by involuntary taxation?

A system of law enforcement, judicial and military protection in place to allow for free enterprise, freedom from graft, corruption, and other criminal enterprise, freedom from unfair marketplace competition, protection of overseas interests and protection from foreign invaders.

Whats the difference between these things are healthcare? Why should the market (for everything besides healthcare) not just be allowed to run free from government intervention? Why should I have to pay the government for protection from foreign invaders? Why can't I just buy my own defences? Why should I have to pay for policing of people who choose to live in areas that experience high crime?

Because healthcare isn't required to prevent anarchy?

I suppose the corollary to your question is where do we stop?  Food, shelter, education, graduate education, transportation, energy, television, travel?  What kind of federal government do we want?  The kind that mandates what people have, or the kind that nurtures an environment where people can obtain material items according to their ability?

We may be hitting on a fundamental philosophical difference here. 

its interesting that i think y'all are finally circling to the basic question of "what is government for?" (I am not separating federal and state and local).
In my view government is to create, maintain, protect and retire common social infrastructure and architecture. 

Please note that I am using broad definitions of infrastructure and architecture

Architecture: The structure and organization of the infrastructure. Architecture in this aspect is primarily a planning exercise to build out the infrastructure in a logical beneficial manner.
Infrastructure: physical and organizational structures needed for the operation of a society. Note this this includes traditional roads and bridges, but also includes structures such as the internet, power grid, social security, the financial 'system', and yes health care.

Now, IMO I want the government to go about creating, maintaining, protecting and retiring these things by assuming first that the necessary structures are in place (created by free market forces). This means the first order of business is maintanence. That is, setting the guidelines by which the system can self-organize along market forces to continually provide high-enough quality infrastructures. However, the more critical that infrastructure is to the populace or to meeting one of the CMPR requirements of another infrastructure(s) then the more closely maintained that area must become. To the extreme that if the market cannot provide the infrastructure to all of society at a reasonable cost (to that society) then the government itself must take over management of that area.  The military is one such area. The government manages our military operations with much of the suppliers directly from the market.  Health care should also be in this camp, as the market has demonstrated that it cannot provide a high-enough quality infrastructure to the entire populace at reasonable costs.