I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

The people with prexisting conditions are the people who have never purchased health insurnace and now want a free ride on the backs of the responsible people, becuase they now have a illiness. In my world we call these people muchers, bums and other such names. They choose to spend their money on beer or Hawaii or a boat or whatever, we chose to pay our premiums.

Absolutely. Like one of my cycling buddies in Colorado. A doctor BTW, family of five, in school for 8 years to become a reconstructive ophthalmologist. He practiced for almost a year before being diagnosed with MS. As if the mountain of debt from school wasn't enough, the medical bills finished the job. He is so deep in the hole he won't ever be able to climb out and he knows it. If it weren’t for his family he likely would have lost his house.

But it's his fault. He’s a “moocher”, a “bum”.

Personally I’m glad we have rational people like you in the insurance industry. It takes a true hero of the American people to make the bold claim that people with preexisting conditions are bums. I encourage you to take this daring new message to the people.

The people with prexisting conditions are the people who have never purchased health insurnace and now want a free ride on the backs of the responsible people, becuase they now have a illiness. In my world we call these people muchers, bums and other such names. They choose to spend their money on beer or Hawaii or a boat or whatever, we chose to pay our premiums.

Absolutely. Like one of my cycling buddies in Colorado. A doctor BTW, family of five, in school for 8 years to become a reconstructive ophthalmologist. He practiced for almost a year before being diagnosed with MS. As if the mountain of debt from school wasn't enough, the medical bills finished the job. He is so deep in the hole he won't ever be able to climb out and he knows it. If it weren’t for his family he likely would have lost his house.

But it's his fault. He’s a “moocher”, a “bum”.

Personally I’m glad we have rational people like you in the insurance industry. It takes a true hero of the American people to make the bold claim that people with preexisting conditions are bums. I encourage you to take this daring new message to the people.

I bet he's fat tho isn't he?

Is there anyone out there who is capable of defending the current American healthcare system without being grossly offensive?

To me this is a completely one-sided issue. I'd like to hear more from some of the more considered right-wingers on here. Do any of you (or anyone in fact) really believe the current system isn't fundamentally flawed? or at the very least in need of serious overhaul?

I think most anyone agrees the current system isn't working. i also think that most people realize that if we go to a all-inclusive gov't run health-care system, that the quality of care is gonna go downhill and our taxes are going up. Is it the right thing to do? yeah i think it is. will the gov't screw it all up? yeah probably.

Is there anyone out there who is capable of defending the current American healthcare system without being grossly offensive?

To me this is a completely one-sided issue. I'd like to hear more from some of the more considered right-wingers on here. Do any of you (or anyone in fact) really believe the current system isn't fundamentally flawed? or at the very least in need of serious overhaul?

I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to argue in depth on the entire subject of health care insurance in the US.  I know personal anecdotes.  I know what is reported in the media.  I know bankruptcy.  

I think it comes down to where you stand on whether or not health care is a basic human right that should be provided by the government through involuntary taxation.  I say it isn't.  Most people posting in this thread in favor of universal care assume it is without articulating why, and move on to how to "fix" the problem without answering the fundamental question.  Ocean, zilla and others that do not support universal care cite anecdotal stories that are thinly veiled propaganda pieces.  I don't know why conservatives as a whole suck at rhetoric, they just do.  FishFarmer gets an A for his Socratic ability to misdirect and answer questions with questions, while never answering the one posed.statistics

Do I think health care insurance is in need of reform?  I don't know.  For me to support any type of regulation, I need evidence of a free-market breakdown.  Simply because administrative costs are lower for government run programs (for the sake of argument we will assume this is true, but I don't concede this point) doesn't mean that the government should take over.  That isn't a free market breakdown - that is an instance where a socialist approach can reduce admin. costs.  Nothing more, nothing less.  How about when the bureaucracy that develops around administration of health care costs and benefits becomes obsolete?  Government programs have a way of self perpetuating and once established are very difficult to eliminate.  

Point to the free market breakdown.  Back it up with statistics (real, uncontrived ones please).  If there is no regulatory fix (like airlines, utilities and the like already have in place), then and only then is it time to start looking to a government run system.  Other than law enforcement, I can't really think of an area that breaks down in a free market and has no regulatory solution.  Please enlighten me.

I come from the industry that is being "reformed", I have friends that are doctors and those that are in the insurance industry. My wife is an expert witness in litigation on issues of malpractice. About half her work is doing mortality studies for one of the labs that tests peoples blood urine and so on. Her work is very well published in medical journals.

I am stating the facts from the industry. This is where money is going and why our healthcare system is so expensive. The truth might be harsh but the truth is critical to fixing the system so it works without breaking the bank, mine, yours or the country's.

Healthcare is a right..you have a right to take care of your body, you have right to eat healthy and exercise or not. You have a right to smoke or not, you have a right to drink a case of beer a day or not.

But you do not have a right to not take care of yourself and demand that everyone else pay the bills for the consequence of your actions. that's called socialism. I much prefer freedom.

Here is the lastest senate bill..the Bascus bill.

FACTBOX: Senate Health Proposal Would Tax Insurers

(Reuters) - Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus has circulated a healthcare reform proposal he hopes will win support from both Democrats and Republicans.

The proposal is based on weeks of intense negotiations by a bipartisan group of six Finance Committee members led by Baucus, a Democrat.

Here are details of the proposal based on a document circulated to health industry lobbyists as President Barack Obama prepares to make a major speech on healthcare to Congress on Wednesday.

INSURANCE MARKET REFORMS

* Creates state-based exchanges where individuals and small businesses can shop for insurance.

* Four categories of minimum benefits would be offered through the exchange. A separate policy offering catastrophic coverage for young adults, a so-called "young invincible" plan, would be offered.

* Beginning in 2013, insurance companies would no longer be able to exclude people from coverage based on pre-existing conditions. Limited-benefit plans and lifetime limits on coverage would be barred. Insurers would be prohibited from rescinding health coverage.

* Starting in 2015, two or more states may form compacts to allow for purchase of non-group health insurance across state lines.

HEALTH COOPERATIVES

* The proposal does not contain a new government health plan, which is backed by Obama and liberal Democrats but opposed by Republicans and health insurers.

* The proposal provides for the creation of non-profit "consumer operated and oriented" plans or co-operatives.

* Federal loans would be provided to help with start-up costs and federal grants would be provided to meet state solvency requirements.

* The co-ops would compete with private insurers in the non-group and small-group insurance markets.

MANDATES AND AFFORDABILITY MEASURES

* Beginning in 2013, all U.S. citizens and legal residents would be required to obtain health coverage.

* Federal tax credits would be provided to help people purchase health insurance with incomes up to 400 percent of poverty.

* The proposal allows an exemption for those who cannot afford coverage.

* For taxpayers between 100 percent and 300 percent of the poverty line, a penalty of $750 per individual with a maximum $1,500 penalty per family would be imposed if they fail to obtain coverage.

* For those with income above 300 percent of poverty, a penalty of $950 per individual with maximum penalty of $3,800 per family would be imposed if they fail to obtain coverage.

* Medicaid would be expanded so everyone up to 133 percent of poverty could qualify.

* Employers would not be required to offer health insurance.

* Firms with 50 or more full-time workers would pay a fee for employees who obtain policies subsidized by federal tax credits.

* No fee would be imposed for workers enrolled in Medicaid.

REVENUE-RAISING FEES AND TAXES

* An excise tax of 35 percent would be levied on insurance companies for health plans above $8,000 for singles and $21,000 for family plans. The tax would apply to self-insured and group-market plans, but not plans sold in the individual market. Threshold would be indexed for inflation.

* Health insurance providers collectively would pay an annual fee of $6 billion starting in 2010. The fee would be allocated by companies' market share.

* Pharmaceutical companies collectively would pay an annual fee of $2.3 billion, allocated by market share.

* Medical device makers collectively would pay an annual fee of $4 billion, allocated by market share.

* Clinical laboratories collectively would pay an annual fee of $750 million. The fee would be allocated by market share with an exemption for small firms.

(Reporting by Donna Smith in Washington; Editing by Eric Beech)

© Thomson Reuters 2009 All rights reserved
 

The people with prexisting conditions are the people who have never purchased health insurnace and now want a free ride on the backs of the responsible people, becuase they now have a illiness. In my world we call these people muchers, bums and other such names. They choose to spend their money on beer or Hawaii or a boat or whatever, we chose to pay our premiums.

Absolutely. Like one of my cycling buddies in Colorado. A doctor BTW, family of five, in school for 8 years to become a reconstructive ophthalmologist. He practiced for almost a year before being diagnosed with MS. As if the mountain of debt from school wasn't enough, the medical bills finished the job. He is so deep in the hole he won't ever be able to climb out and he knows it. If it weren’t for his family he likely would have lost his house.

But it's his fault. He’s a “moocher”, a “bum”.

Personally I’m glad we have rational people like you in the insurance industry. It takes a true hero of the American people to make the bold claim that people with preexisting conditions are bums. I encourage you to take this daring new message to the people.

Are you saying that he was praticing for a year without health insurnace? How? As soon as you open a pratice you get a packaged deal on your insurnaces, you need to get a bunch of them from malpratice insurance to business insurance to health insurnace. Everyone i know and i know several who are in private pratice gets the package deal its much cheaper. your post doesnt makes sense.
If he was working for someone else a hospital or clinic he should be covered by their policy, doctors are rare specialists are very rare and have the pick of employement deals. Something doenst make sense here.

 ...we got the last few trillion dollar wars for free.
What have we become? A bunch of "war moochers?"
And they were generated by a "pre-existing mental condition" that held that it was alright to cash in peoples lives for access to oil regions. Masquerading as patriots, these free-loading commercial zealots have cost taxpayers trillions.
 Next to that, providing better health care just doesn't seem so un-American at all.

Steve
 

...we got the last few trillion dollar wars for free.
What have we become? A bunch of "war moochers?"
And they were generated by a "pre-existing mental condition" that held that it was alright to cash in peoples lives for access to oil regions. Masquerading as patriots, these free-loading commercial zealots have cost taxpayers trillions.
 Next to that, providing better health care just doesn't seem so un-American at all.

Steve
 

Stay on healthcare, 3,500 americans where mudered on 9/11. I would call that an act of war. Thats more then where killed in Pearl Harbour.

Are you saying that he was praticing for a year without health insurnace? How? As soon as you open a pratice you get a packaged deal on your insurances...

I will now quote you verbatim, spelling and all:

”The people with prexisting conditions are the people who have never purchased health insurnace and now want a free ride on the backs of the responsible people...”

That statement unambiguously speaks for itself. On your planet life is fair and everyone gets exactly what they deserve. I suspect the planet's name is Ayn Randius.

Sure he had insurance. Are you suggesting that insurance has no caps, limits, or that they pay for everything for life?

As you should know as an industry insider, group policies are often based on employment and since there is currently little demand for surgeons with impaired motor skills his coverage lapsed and he was forced into COBRA. Frankly, I'm not sure how the worthless bum is insured now.

Something doenst make sense here

I completely agree.

Is there anyone out there who is capable of defending the current American healthcare system without being grossly offensive?

To me this is a completely one-sided issue. I'd like to hear more from some of the more considered right-wingers on here. Do any of you (or anyone in fact) really believe the current system isn't fundamentally flawed? or at the very least in need of serious overhaul?

I think it comes down to where you stand on whether or not health care is a basic human right that should be provided by the government through involuntary taxation.  I say it isn't.

OK, this is indeed the heart of the matter. At least, the interesting part that doesn't involve back and forth with biased stats.

Your statement contains multiple parts tho'. Are you saying healthcare simply isn't a basic human right? At all? No healthcare? It should all be available based upon what you can afford to pay?

Also, what is a basic human right that should be provided by the government by involuntary taxation?

Is there anyone out there who is capable of defending the current American healthcare system without being grossly offensive?

To me this is a completely one-sided issue. I'd like to hear more from some of the more considered right-wingers on here. Do any of you (or anyone in fact) really believe the current system isn't fundamentally flawed? or at the very least in need of serious overhaul?

I think it comes down to where you stand on whether or not health care is a basic human right that should be provided by the government through involuntary taxation.  I say it isn't.

OK, this is indeed the heart of the matter. At least, the interesting part that doesn't involve back and forth with biased stats.

Your statement contains multiple parts tho'. Are you saying healthcare simply isn't a basic human right? At all? No healthcare? It should all be available based upon what you can afford to pay?

1.  Healthcare is not a basic human right.
2.  It should be available based upon what you can negotiate in the marketplace or what may be provided charitably.

Also, what is a basic human right that should be provided by the government by involuntary taxation?

A system of law enforcement, judicial and military protection in place to allow for free enterprise, freedom from graft, corruption, and other criminal enterprise, freedom from unfair marketplace competition, protection of overseas interests and protection from foreign invaders.

Zilla is right.  It's not really about healthcare, it's about the subtle overthrow of our government and the freedoms we've enjoyed for over 200 years.

Do you forget how we just lost our freedom to fish in certain areas?  Think it's going to stop there?

It's time to wake up before it's all gone, folks.

This is so true. Now if you people are really paying attention to what is going on you would be scared to death.

If Cap and Trade passes the federal goverment would have control of all energy and building codes, and run up huge deficts that would break the bank.

If Universial Health care passes the fenderal goverment has control of all healthcare and would run up huge deficts and break the bank.

The feds control the auto industry and its going to break the bank.

The feds control the banks and its going to break the bank.

If card check passes the unions would control every business and retailer in this country causing massive price inflation.

So now think hard the unions and the federal goverment are in complete control of this country and our lives.

And last but not least how to pay for it all?? There is not enough money in income tax if you tax all income at 100% to pay for it all. So where does the money come from?

This is the scary part. Timthoy Guikner head of the treasuary said a couple of weeks ago on a sunday morning news show, i forgot which one, that a federal sales tax is the only way to pay for everything and its coming.This is on top of the federal income tax.

Now if the feds have a sales tax in place and are controled by the liberals, guess what they are going to do? Tax anything they dont like at 100% or 1000% to make the cost of that product so expensive that no one can afford to buy it. Lots of people saw that interview and its scared them to death. People who hunt and target pratice are buying all the ammo as soon as it hits the store shelf because they know guns are the first thing the feds are coming after, go try to buy ammo and you will see what i am talking about.

Peta is at work in California as evident with the MLPA's and PETA doesnt like fishing, they are part of the liberal left wing...ready for your fishiing tackle to have a huge federal sales tax put on it?

What you are seeing is classic textbook socialism.

Zilla is right.  It's not really about healthcare, it's about the subtle overthrow of our government and the freedoms we've enjoyed for over 200 years.

Do you forget how we just lost our freedom to fish in certain areas?  Think it's going to stop there?

It's time to wake up before it's all gone, folks.

This is so true. Now if you people are really paying attention to what is going on you would be scared to death.

If Cap and Trade passes the federal goverment would have control of all energy and building codes, and run up huge deficts that would break the bank.

If Universial Health care passes the fenderal goverment has control of all healthcare and would run up huge deficts and break the bank.

The feds control the auto industry and its going to break the bank.

The feds control the banks and its going to break the bank.

If card check passes the unions would control every business and retailer in this country causing massive price inflation.

So now think hard the unions and the federal goverment are in complete control of this country and our lives.

And last but not least how to pay for it all?? There is not enough money in income tax if you tax all income at 100% to pay for it all. So where does the money come from?

This is the scary part. Timthoy Guikner head of the treasuary said a couple of weeks ago on a sunday morning news show, i forgot which one, that a federal sales tax is the only way to pay for everything and its coming.This is on top of the federal income tax.

Now if the feds have a sales tax in place and are controled by the liberals, guess what they are going to do? Tax anything they dont like at 100% or 1000% to make the cost of that product so expensive that no one can afford to buy it. Lots of people saw that interview and its scared them to death. People who hunt and target pratice are buying all the ammo as soon as it hits the store shelf because they know guns are the first thing the feds are coming after, go try to buy ammo and you will see what i am talking about.

Peta is at work in California as evident with the MLPA's and PETA doesnt like fishing, they are part of the liberal left wing...ready for your fishiing tackle to have a huge federal sales tax put on it?

What you are seeing is classic textbook socialism.

Lets talk about the socially conservative things that are forced upon us then, and where do you stand on such issues as:

Drug legalization?
Gay marriage?
Abortion?
Gambling (internet and otherwise)?
NAFTA?
Prayer in school?
Seatbelt laws?
Helmet laws?
Legal immigration?
Illegal immigration?

A simple one sentence response to each just to get your pulse is fine.

Are you saying that he was praticing for a year without health insurnace? How? As soon as you open a pratice you get a packaged deal on your insurances...

I will now quote you verbatim, spelling and all:

”The people with prexisting conditions are the people who have never purchased health insurnace and now want a free ride on the backs of the responsible people...”

That statement unambiguously speaks for itself. On your planet life is fair and everyone gets exactly what they deserve. I suspect the planet's name is Ayn Randius.

Sure he had insurance. Are you suggesting that insurance has no caps, limits, or that they pay for everything for life?

As you should know as an industry insider, group policies are often based on employment and since there is currently little demand for surgeons with impaired motor skills his coverage lapsed and he was forced into COBRA. Frankly, I'm not sure how the worthless bum is insured now.

Something doenst make sense here

I completely agree.

This is ridiculous, once an insurance company is treating someone for a disease they cant drop them, that is against the law in every state. What you are saying is that due to his MS he can not work, that has nothing to do with health insurance. He should be collecting long term disability insurance payment for the rest of his life, which includes health coverage. Look on your paycheck everyone pays into this fund.