I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

Also no metion of the people of mexico coming across the border and getting free healthcare.

 

Nope. Nothing works for you except dinner conversations with your wife and what your Mexican friend has to say. It's apparent at this point you haven't been lying. But living in denial isn't a whole lot better when you start advocating a position.

Try it logically. You've said you're not talking about the census numbers for illegals, but rather the folks that storm the borders seeking medical care. How many people do you imagine it would take to make a significant impact on the health care costs of the entire nation? I'm curious. I'm going to say 10 million, just for a number. That would mean more than 27,000 people a day, everyday, elude border security and visit border town hospitals. Maybe INS should stake out hospitals 

Certainly border towns suffer disproportionately with this (at least they do in other issues regarding illegals). But the entire medical system? Too big a leap.

Ben

Only in the US do we include premature births in our death stats. Only in the US do we inlcude death for accidents and murders.

So how did you come to believe this?

My wife works with life talbes all the time. She is called as a expert do a life expendecy on someone who has been killed or injured so the laywers can figure out a settlement.

Each life insurnace company has thier own life talbes that they use to determine how long someone will live so they can price their life insurance policys. If the medicare talbes where accurate they would not go to such great expense to have their own life tables.
The difference in the data between a life insurances companys mortality and the medicare mortality is huge. For example my wife is presenting tonight to a group of west coast life insurnace underwriters on the excess mortality of people who test postivie for Cocaine at the time they apply for life insurnace. ( how much does Cocaine shorten their lives) This is brand new research that no one has ever done and stuff like this is never part of the medicare life tables. But every life insurnace company pays big money for this kind of data.

totally separate discussion, but is your wife an actuary?

Living in a world that does cutting edge science every day, its nice having a smart wife,
i read such documents very carefully knowin what to look for to see if they are accurate or biased. On page 42 dealign with the cost of defensive medicene..The report states that one groups say 9% of cost another say no added costs. When you see bullshit like this is a report you stop reading and toss it.

I believe this is the section of the report in question ..

Defensive Medicine.
Some have argued that U.S. physicians are more likely to practice defensive medicine
— that is, ordering more tests or providing more care than they otherwise would in
an attempt to avoid being sued for medical malpractice.
In a recent survey of Pennsylvania physicians specializing in areas of medicine where
litigation is frequent (such as surgeons, radiologists, and obstetricians/gynecologists),
93% reported practicing defensive medicine.⁷⁰ Quantifying the specific effect of
defensive medicine on health spending is more difficult to measure. The most widely
cited study on this issue indicated that states that adopted malpractice tort reforms
reduced spending on two heart procedures (acute myocardial infarction and ischemic
heart disease) by 5% to 9%.⁷¹ However, a subsequent analysis by the Congressional
Budget Office (CBO) that used a broader set of ailments found no effect of
malpractice tort reform on health spending. It concluded that “on the basis of
existing studies and its own research, CBO believes that savings from reducing
defensive medicine would be very small.”⁷² A more recent CBO analysis found that
studies on the relationship between tort reforms and health spending are
“inconsistent” and “mixed.” CBO concluded that tort reforms are sometimes
associated with higher health spending, sometimes lower spending, and sometimes
no effect on health spending.⁷³

70 David Studdert, Michelle Mello, William Sage, et al., “Defensive Medicine Among High-
Risk Specialist Physicians in a Volatile Malpractice Environment,” JAMA - The Journal of
the American Medical Association, June 1, 2005, vol. 293, pp. 2609-2617, available at
[http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/293/21/2609].

71 Daniel Kessler and Mark McClellan, “Do doctors practice defensive medicine?” The
Quarterly Journal of Economics, May 1996, vol. 111, no. 2, pp. 353-390, available at
[http://www.jstor.org/view/00335533/di976354/97p00433/0].

72 Perry Beider and Stuart Hagen, “Limiting Tort Liability for Medical Malpractice,”
Congressional Budget Office, January 8, 2004, available at [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/
49xx/doc4968/01-08-MedicalMalpractice.pdf].

73 Chapin White and Stuart Hagen, “Medical Malpractice Tort Limits and Health Care
Spending,” Background Paper, Congressional Budget Office, April 2006, available at
[http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/71xx/doc7174/04-28-MedicalMalpractice.pdf], p. 3.

Why is this bs?   I don't see them being biased or inaccurate here.  I think they do a decent job covering a broad range of recent studies (with citations) on the effects of tort reform on health care costs.  Did they miss something?   If they had been biased they would have picked only the studies that agreed with one opinion or better yet they would have just made stuff up, but I don't see them doing that here.

 On page 42 dealign with the cost of defensive medicene..The report states that one groups say 9% of cost another say no added costs. When you see bullshit like this is a report you stop reading and toss it.

They were comparing separate studies, one took into account broad sets of ailments and the other was based on very specific conditions. Would you seriously believe that these studies should reach identical conclusions?

The audacity. Let me get this right. You're snubbing the entire CRS study over your own failure in comprehension?

This is pointless. We are done.

As an intellectually and technologically advanced nation, we are smart enough to know that we need to take care of our own. And that mechanism is already in place. Anyone on US soil can walk into a hospital and they will be treated.  That’s humane, and compassionate. 

I have been in the medical business for over 20 years, and have worked closely with surgeons and doctors in Canada, Australia, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Sweden, Germany, London, Czech Republic and here in the US.  My first choice for surgery by far is in the United States, and I have never once heard anyone in the world say anything different.  Kings and dignitaries from other countries come to the Cleveland Clinic and other prestigious US hospitals for the best healthcare in the world.  A doctor there told me that one of these kings left a $30 million endowment to the Clinic after treatment.

I personally find it hard to believe that it is about the access to healthcare. Real change will come only with tort reform, accountability for frivolous lawsuits, and intolerance for corruption.

I don’t believe this is a partisan issue, but rather a subversive attack on our constitution.

The House and Senate Dem’s think they are finally in power, but are too drunk with exuberance to see they are simply the ‘host’ victim for Obama.  The GOP members are so arrogant they think they can undermine the Dem’s and Obama without exposing their own warts.  In the meantime, Obama is appointing his czars, appropriating funds to them and preparing his team to lead our “Fundamental Change,” as he promised during the election.  He is very intelligent, and so savvy that he is not going to come right out and tell us he is a socialist. 

Ocean_314, Reply 162, listed what I am fighting against.  He gave some great examples that define socialism. 

It’s time to wake up.

I personally find it hard to believe that it is about the access to healthcare.

Why?

I think we encounter a problem when we put our faith in markets with regard to health care.

For profit insurance companies really do deliver, but they deliver for shareholders and corporate execs. That is the nature of corporations. It's not evil, just capitalism.

Pharmaceutical companies really do deliver some amazing products, but they make money when we're ill. When we're well, they don't. They're not evil, just capitalists.

Insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies spend massive amounts of money on lobbying efforts to ensure their continuing profitability. Your voice, and your needs may be drowned out by their political clout. It's not democracy, just capitalism.

It amazes me how many people defend so vehemently their right to make a profit, even when our costs are so incredibly high. Perhaps making money in the insurance and pharmaceutical business is incompatible with affordable, accessible health care for all. I think we get wedded to the idea that our system is American, and therefore better. In doing so, we lose our ability to look at things objectively.

Put it this way: there are some functions of government that we consider so very important that we don't trust the free market: national defense, police and fire, our justice system, for example.

I see national health care as belonging in this category, leaving plenty of room for competition among care providers- those who help us get well.

This country has been built on the freedom to make a profit. Why would anyone tkae the huge risks to start a business if they couldnt make a profit and maybe if they do ir right and work 60 to 70 hours a week for many years strike it rich? Thats how your job was created and all industry in this country.
Until you start a business you have no idea how hard it is to be successful, how much time,  stress sleepless nights. I quit IBM in 1985 and started my won business. You have no idea what hard work is until you have your own busienss. I hired 250 employees and my only motavation for doing all of this was to become rich..nothing else.

Why is this bs?   I don't see them being biased or inaccurate here.  I think they do a decent job covering a broad range of recent studies (with citations) on the effects of tort reform on health care costs.  Did they miss something?   If they had been biased they would have picked only the studies that agreed with one opinion or better yet they would have just made stuff up, but I don't see them doing that here.
[/quote]

All those unecessary test that eveyone is talking about costs between 20 to 30% of healthcare dollars spent. Those test are done because of the fear of being sued. Didnt I posted a study that detailed this earlier?

Also no metion of the people of mexico coming across the border and getting free healthcare.

 

Nope. Nothing works for you except dinner conversations with your wife and what your Mexican friend has to say. It's apparent at this point you haven't been lying. But living in denial isn't a whole lot better when you start advocating a position.

Try it logically. You've said you're not talking about the census numbers for illegals, but rather the folks that storm the borders seeking medical care. How many people do you imagine it would take to make a significant impact on the health care costs of the entire nation? I'm curious. I'm going to say 10 million, just for a number. That would mean more than 27,000 people a day, everyday, elude border security and visit border town hospitals. Maybe INS should stake out hospitals 

Certainly border towns suffer disproportionately with this (at least they do in other issues regarding illegals). But the entire medical system? Too big a leap.

Ben

Come to the grape and pear harvest in town, grapes are just starting. All the Mexicans doing the work are illegal, only people who will work that hard, and its hard hard work. I drive the tractor pulling to gondola just for the fun of it.
After the grapes are in the owner throws a big party, and the mexicans know how to party! Its a blast then they all pack up and head to their homes and familys in Mexico. They make enough money so they dont have to work the rest of the year in their villages. The same people come back every year, they have no problem crossing the border and ther is never a shortage of labor. I am good friends with most of them even though i dont speak spanish, some speak english well.
And yes we are the welfare state for Mexico and yes the people in Mexico use our hospitals for the medical care and yes the Dems refuse to even bring up the issue.

Only in the US do we include premature births in our death stats. Only in the US do we inlcude death for accidents and murders.

So how did you come to believe this?

My wife works with life talbes all the time. She is called as a expert do a life expendecy on someone who has been killed or injured so the laywers can figure out a settlement.



totally separate discussion, but is your wife an actuary?

She is an epidemlogist. but she speaks actuary very well.

As an intellectually and technologically advanced nation, we are smart enough to know that we need to take care of our own. And that mechanism is already in place. Anyone on US soil can walk into a hospital and they will be treated.  That’s humane, and compassionate. 

I have been in the medical business for over 20 years, and have worked closely with surgeons and doctors in Canada, Australia, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Sweden, Germany, London, Czech Republic and here in the US.  My first choice for surgery by far is in the United States, and I have never once heard anyone in the world say anything different.  Kings and dignitaries from other countries come to the Cleveland Clinic and other prestigious US hospitals for the best healthcare in the world.  A doctor there told me that one of these kings left a $30 million endowment to the Clinic after treatment.

I personally find it hard to believe that it is about the access to healthcare. Real change will come only with tort reform, accountability for frivolous lawsuits, and intolerance for corruption.

I don’t believe this is a partisan issue, but rather a subversive attack on our constitution.

The House and Senate Dem’s think they are finally in power, but are too drunk with exuberance to see they are simply the ‘host’ victim for Obama.  The GOP members are so arrogant they think they can undermine the Dem’s and Obama without exposing their own warts.  In the meantime, Obama is appointing his czars, appropriating funds to them and preparing his team to lead our “Fundamental Change,” as he promised during the election.  He is very intelligent, and so savvy that he is not going to come right out and tell us he is a socialist. 

Ocean_314, Reply 162, listed what I am fighting against.  He gave some great examples that define socialism. 

It’s time to wake up.

Very well said and thank you. Trying to wak people up before its too late is why i am spending the time doing this.

All those unecessary test that eveyone is talking about costs between 20 to 30% of healthcare dollars spent.

Ocean, where do you get these numbers? Everything you have said has a seed of truth to it, but you inflate the numbers so much you loose all credibility. THEN you dismiss credible studies because they don't confirm numbers you've pulled out of your a$$.

Come to the grape and pear harvest in town, grapes are just starting. All the Mexicans doing the work are illegal, only people who will work that hard, and its hard hard work. I drive the tractor pulling to gondola just for the fun of it.

When I hire paid labor I do it through a reputable labor contractor so I know everyone is legal and insured. By hiring illegal laborers your friend aggravates the problem you're so obsessed with. God knows I understand his issues with getting people when you need them (especially pears), and no one has no more empathy for his situation than me, but the fact is he is part of the problem.

All that aside, you have no business "estimating" a 10-20% drag on health care costs from the seat of your tractor. No doubt there is a cost, but you have no more an idea what it is than I do.

Ben

I have been in the medical business for over 20 years

In what capacity?

A doctor there told me that one of these kings left a $30 million endowment to the Clinic after treatment.

It is my understanding he was a ME king. Not top rung medical facilities there. There were also some interesting strings attached.

No one has said that US medical professionals and equipment are anything less than excellent. The issue is that while kings and foreign dignitaries have easy access to them, a large percentage of everyday US folk do not. You have pretty much made the argument for me.

As for your political rant, it's hard to take you Sirius-ly 

Ben

  I could not cut and paste this white paper but follow the lead and you ahould be able to get to it. the botom line is that defensive medicene costs in the hundred of billions of dollars, or between 20 to 30% of healhcare costs..also stated that it could be as high a 9% of total healthcare spent in the US, this includes eveything including spending on bandaids and asprin.



Latest Article - September 1, 2009 
Retooling medical professional liability   
 
 
The nationwide healthcare reform discussion may offer an opportunity to revisit the way the US adjudicates claims of medical negligence. The current medical professional liability (MPL) environment is both adversarial and wasteful, and often does not help those who have suffered from negligence.
This paper looks at the current environment, calculates where American MPL dollars are spent, and identifies several ways to mend the way we handle medical professional liability.
 
For more information on Milliman's healthcare reform analysis, follow our blog at www.healthcaretownhall.com. Or follow us on LinkedIn. 
 
 
September 8, 2009
Uwe Reinhardt on tomorrow's health reform speech 
September 7, 2009
Tighter cost management for physicians 
September 3, 2009
More Danish 
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Illustrating anti-selection 
August 31, 2009
Inside the Healthy Indiana Plan 
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Weekend reading 
 
 
 
 
The convergence of healthcare quality and efficiency
By Helen Blumen, Lynn Nemiccolo 
 
 
Experience under the Healthy Indiana Plan: The short-term cost challenges of expanding coverage to the uninsured
By Rob Damler 
 

Here is a piece of it i could copy, it talk about who makes the money off of the lawsuits and the lawsuit costs. I can not copy this paper. Retooling medical professional liability. this is very detailed but its a fee white paper that my wife subscribes to.

Medmal: Where the money goes
September 9th, 2009 No comments Based on a Milliman analysis of more than 30 years of medical professional liability (MPL) insurance industry data, as reported to state insurance departments in annual financial statements, the distribution of how premiums are spent in the current tort system of adjudicating claims breaks down as follows:

27% is for the insurance industry’s claims management costs, which include:
22% for defense counsel, expert witnesses, litigation, technology fees, and other court costs
5% for insurance company oversight of claims
15% is spent on insurance company overhead and expenses (e.g., agent commissions, state premium taxes, etc.)
19% pays for the claimant’s (plaintiff’s) attorney
That leaves 39% for final disbursement to the claimant when the entire adjudication process has finally reached its conclusion three and a half to five or more years after the original incident
 

See the new paper, “Retooling medical professional liability,” for more information.

Efficiency, Medmal Chad Karls, medical malpractice, waste
Retooling the American approach to medical professional liability
September 8th, 2009 No comments The American medical professional liability (MPL) system is both adversarial and inefficient. As the conversation over healthcare reform continues, the timing may be right to reconsider the current approach to MPL (aka “medmal”).

Milliman principal Chad Karls, an expert on MPL issues, tackles this topic with the latest Milliman healthcare reform briefing paper.

Medmal, Reform Chad Karls, medical professional liability
Uwe Reinhardt on tomorrow’s health reform speech
September 8th, 2009 No comments