I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

Just putting the administrative costs in perspective. 

The point is that the claim that government health care is more expensive is not only baseless, it is also demonstratively false. Even the private insurers don't deny that fact otherwise why would they demand subsidies to compete against Medicare.

And saving will inevitability increase with rising market share and bargaining power.

They try but the goverment will only pay so mcuh for medicare and its not the full amount, so guess where they subsidies medicare..you guessed it by passing on the costs to those of us with health insurance.

The people with prexisting conditions are the people who have never purchased health insurnace

That's just stupid.

and now want a free ride on the backs of the responsible people, becuase they now have a illiness. In my world we call these people muchers, bums and other such names.

So insurance for a family of four runs about $12,000 a year. And what you're saying is that if you are laid off *all* you have to do is keep paying your premium? It doesn't occur to you that might not be possible being as you don't have a job but still have a family to care for? Any one of us could find themselves in that position, so I guess that makes us all potential  muchers (moochers, I guess) and bums.

Insurance co's are not necessarily evil (though some certainly appear to be), they just represent a layer of unnecessary expense.

And it's truly weird how you fear government involvement in health care, but trust government so completely to watchdog insurance companies.

Ben

!2,000 a year is for coverage is for all doctors visits and things like that. Most people who get laid off change theri coverage to castrophic coverage that costs around 2,500 per year with a 2,500 dectauble and then get whatever insurance the company offers when they find a new job.
The responsible adult for goes lots of things that are uneccessary to make sure they have 6 months worth income just incase they get laid off...but personal responsiblity seems to be a thing of the past, just let the goverment take care of you and shove big goverment down the throats of those of us who are responsiblie and vaule our freedoms.

The responsible adult ...

Ahhh, so now you're the judge of what is "responsible". Are we going to set aside the ridiculous idea that people who can't get coverage because they have a pre-existing condition "never bought insurance when they were healthy"?

shove big goverment down the throats of those of us who are responsiblie and vaule our freedoms.

And now your just better than people w/o insurance. People w/o insurance are irresponsible and don't value their freedoms? Just bums and mooches?

You go ahead and construct rosy little pictures of how "responsible" people avoid what is sometimes unavoidable. I've had insurance every day of my adult life, but there were far to many times when I was inches away from not, and can easily see how someone else might not be as lucky.

Ben

I have had to go without insurnace when i started my business but that was at 25, people start usiing insurance for abusing their bodies, obesity, smoking around 40 and older. This is the issue and at anytime before you have these "pre existing conditions you can buy insurnace, but some chose not to.

And congradualtions for being responsilbe.

Now we should all deal with the issues of why healthcare is so expensive in this counrty and not big goverment. Deal with the costs issues and healthcare becomes affordable and we still get the best care in the world.
Let goverment take over healthcare and the quality of care will go down the toilet.

oh ya and we pay the full cost of our healthcare out of pcoket, but because we maintain very healthy bodies we carry castrophic coverage with a 2,500 dectuable.
We pay out of pocket for dentist visits and for office visits to the doctors if we ever need to go.
The only health worrys we have is an accident of if they gym closes in town..my wife loves her gym classes...lol

Zilla is right.  It's not really about healthcare, it's about the subtle overthrow of our government and the freedoms we've enjoyed for over 200 years.

Do you forget how we just lost our freedom to fish in certain areas?  Think it's going to stop there?

It's time to wake up before it's all gone, folks.

It's not really about healthcare, it's about the subtle overthrow of our government and the freedoms we've enjoyed for over 200 years.

While I can appreciate what you're saying, I have to disagree, and I was at the last DFG meeting regarding the MLPA  . It is about health care, and more. Aside from the idea of people not receiving care -- and don't kid yourself there are many instances where people have died because they couldn't afford care -- we as a nation cannot continue to afford to spend 16% of our GDP on health care. It makes us less competitive with countries that have universal health care. And there is a moral component that Ocean is trying to slip by by calling people w/o insurance mooches and bums, because if they are mooches and bums we aren't bad people for letting them swirl in the toilet.

You cast the problem as a subtle overthrow of our government, which is unique, most against universal care cast it as too much government. If you want an example of minimum government just look to Somalia for an example.

Or better, look all over the industrialized world where universal care exists. Find one country in that group where it's citizens would trade their system for ours and then we can talk how evil it is. Denmark's health care system is inferior to, imo, France or Switzerland, but the Danes are amazed at what we go through here. And I can tell you there are few people in the world more stubbornly independent.

So what is it, Sirius, that you fear? When you say we will loose our freedoms, do you fear you will loose your ability to refuse to by insurance? Because that's the only restriction I see coming.

Ben

Well, now I'm confused. Is it fat, drunk smokers ruining everything or diseased illegal immigrants who trek across the border to use our emergency rooms?

Well, now I'm confused. Is is fat, drunk smokers ruining everything or diseased illegal immigrants who trek across the border to use our emergency rooms?

Really. The logic is that if we were all really healthy we wouldn't be having this discussion. Go figure.

The border must be really busy, because more and more Americans are headed south for treatment.

Ben

This is what I'm afraid of: Reform is going to make healthcare affordable for everybody, only it will take years to get treatment for non-life threatening issues, what with there not being enough doctors to go around:

Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.

More than seven in 10 doctors, or 71% — the most lopsided response in the poll — answered "no" when asked if they believed "the government can cover 47 million more people and that it will cost less money and the quality of care will be better."

This response is consistent with critics who complain that the administration and congressional Democrats have yet to explain how, even with the current number of physicians and nurses, they can cover more people and lower the cost at the same time.

In 2006, Massachusetts passed its medical overhaul — minus a public option — similar to what's being proposed on a national scale now. It hasn't worked as expected. Costs are higher, with insurance premiums rising 22% faster than in the U.S. as a whole.

"Health spending in Massachusetts is higher than the United States on average and is growing at a faster rate," according to a recent report from the Urban Institute.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199

"Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it"...

This thread is amazing...


at the going rates your 2500 cost/year will go be roughly 3350 in 2011, and 9500 in 2018. That does not include the adjustments for your increasing age of course. We can do that math as well if you'd like

They try but the goverment will only pay so mcuh for medicare and its not the full amount, so guess where they subsidies medicare..you guessed it by passing on the costs to those of us with health insurance.

Categorically false. When Medicare Advantage was intially introduced private industry balked at the prospect of having to match the administrative costs of government run program. They bitched and moaned and eventually purchased legislation that created the subsidies. They clearly demanded subsidies on the assertion that they could not compete with the government run administrative costs.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199

Yeah, IBD/TIPP polls are a hoot. Nope, no bias there.

Weren't they the same group that came out with the poll showing McCain with 75% of the youth vote? 

This is what I'm afraid of: Reform is going to make healthcare affordable for everybody, only it will take years to get treatment for non-life threatening issues,

It is certainly possible. Canada is the poster child for waiting. One of my Kaiser doctors is from there and described how they allocate resources. But, as he described it, if you missed the first cycle you'd almost certainly get your elective work done the next. My failing memory can't recall is a cycle was a quarter or a year.

Actually I personally have no problem waiting for elective work. But it doesn't have to be that way (and with insurance mandates being the method of coverage, probably wouldn't). In New Zealand if you want to go to the head of the line you just pay more. I'm not aware of waits in Scandinavia or Western Europe, other than Britain, but that doesn't mean there aren't. I can say categorically I've never met anyone from another industrialized country, including Canada, who would trade their health care system for ours.

what with there not being enough doctors to go around:

Like statistics, polls are very malleable. In one people were asked if they were "for The Obama Health Plan" and got remarkably low numbers (20 odd %). If asked the same question, but with an explanation of how it would work, acceptance rose into 60s.

Why would Docs leave their practice? They are already being paid by insurance companies and would continue to be. If a "public option" were part of the mix it would be equivalent to being paid by Medicare. Since there is no information about the poll it's hard to criticize or support it. Lacking that, I would be more inclined to accept the AMA's conclusion, wouldn't you?

Bottom line, Canada's wait is about how much money is allocated (according to my Dr), not about a lack of doctors, and it doesn't appear to be a problem for the rest of the industrialized world.

Ben