I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

Here are the stats:

Lovely, but entirely pointless without attribution. And I will not accept Beck as a source.

Several points:

You will never subtract malpractice from the equation as occurs quite regularly on the real planet that we live on. And the only effect that capping penalties has is informing them they have little to worry about once they work that exact amount into their costs.

CBO studies based on states that have enacted tort reform concluded: (pg 48)

... subsequent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) that used a broader set of ailments found no effect of malpractice tort reform on health spending.  It concluded that “on the basis of existing studies and its own research, CBO believes that savings from reducing defensive medicine would be very small.”  A more recent CBO analysis found that studies on the relationship between tort reforms and health spending are “inconsistent” and “mixed.”  CBO concluded that tort reforms are sometimes associated with higher health spending, sometimes lower spending, and sometimes no effect on health spending

.

"Most of the prescription medicene consumed in this country is to treat overweight people."

Depression drugs are by far the most prescribed, followed by pain, and hypertension medication. You can’t simply come here and present fabrications as evidence. It discredits your entire argument and calls into question any other “evidence” you present.

And once again, no one here has broached the discrepancy in administrative costs between private insurers and the public option. Medicare has considerably lower administrative costs, which is obviously due to the fact that they have no stockholders to pay. And I’m sure in part due to Medicare’s practice of not allowing its chief officers to rake in millions in salaries and bonuses, or the booking frequent sales trips to the Grand Cayman Islands, etc.

These are the facts. (pg 36)

Spending on health administration and insurance cost $465 per person in the United States in 2004, which was seven times that of the OECD median

The wholly government run system in the U.K. absorbs 8% of their GDP, while our largely private system runs at 16%. Please explain how the evil, inefficient government bureaucrats pull off this miracle???  Why are private insurers administrative costs so high??

ok let me restate that Goverment medicene works great all over the world until you get seriously ill. Then if you can afford it you come to the US for life saving care.

Except it's not true. Between my wife and I we have acquaintances and family all over the world. My family is from Denmark. Those that are left are elderly, and we've lost several in the last few years. All received excellent care in their later, more infirm years. My wife is from Fiji where medical care is wanting. For serious care they go to Australia, not the US. I can go on and on. I forget the exact number, but the WHO ranks the US something like 17th for health care.  Maybe someone can correct me.

In fact, health care is excellent all through Western and Northern Europe and much of Asia. You even ignored Northern Boy's return to England because of health care. If your statement were anywhere near accurate our hospitals would be bulging with people from outside the country.

How do you support a statement like that?

Ben

How do you explain all the people from all over the world coming to the US for healthcare when they get seriously ill? Why i will agree in countries where the populations are healthy and not overweight and dont have to deal with the issues of malpratice lawsuits and the people of Mexico flooding their medical system there is more money for the elderly.

The Cleveland Clinic and the Mayo Clinic make their money off of the wealthy people who come from all over the world for treatment, they use this money to give free or low cost treatement to the poor.

Well, illegal immigrants are a net drain on our health care system.

Sure. But to say that it represents a drain equal to 10% (to 20%, depending on which post you  read), is silly.

Then there is the idea that "underfunded" Medicare constitutes another 10% (to 20%, depending on which post)

I know a hospital administrator in Ohio. He HATES medicare, but has never said why, just that it was a "nightmare". Since hospitals are not required cater to medicare patients I asked why they bothered. His response? It was marginally profitable so they "suffered through it" (his is a "for profit" hospital).

If you add up Ocean's numbers (depending on which post) -- eliminate malpractice suits, "people from Mexico", medicare, fat people and the elderly -- health care would essentially be free for the rest of us. Of course it would be more expedient to just eliminate sick people all together 


Ben

You musta missed the part where he said they were overflowing with mexicans.  Apparently, despite injury/illness so severe they require ER attention they can cross deserts, climb mountains and sneak past armed border agents to get in on them free doctors..........and then walk back home.

Ya, I know. All those illegals clogging up the medical system. 12 million represents less than 3.5% of the population, and despite the additional fact that they are substantially younger than the general population as a group, they are supposed to rack up 10% of our health care costs.

They may have also been fat, there was no distinction made.

Man, between fat Mexicans and us fat kayakers we may as well give up   

Ben

that the us census figure on how many illegal mexicans are here in this country. The real problem is the people who live in Mexico and when they get sick they drive across the border or sneak across the border and use the emergecy room. Hosptials dont keep track of these numbers, why i dont know for sure. This is the problem.
And its very very easy to cross the border. My buddy who is illegal but his kids are born here has been deported several times and he is back in a week or two. If you dont think the people of Mexico use our emergecy rooms, ask them.  Come to the grape harvest in ukiah and ask them. Our border is very very easy to cross.

Here are the stats:

Lovely, but entirely pointless without attribution. And I will not accept Beck as a source.

Several points:

You will never subtract malpractice from the equation as occurs quite regularly on the real planet that we live on. And the only effect that capping penalties has is informing them they have little to worry about once they work that exact amount into their costs.

CBO studies based on states that have enacted tort reform concluded: (pg 48)

... subsequent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) that used a broader set of ailments found no effect of malpractice tort reform on health spending.  It concluded that “on the basis of existing studies and its own research, CBO believes that savings from reducing defensive medicine would be very small.”  A more recent CBO analysis found that studies on the relationship between tort reforms and health spending are “inconsistent” and “mixed.”  CBO concluded that tort reforms are sometimes associated with higher health spending, sometimes lower spending, and sometimes no effect on health spending

Cap on lawsuits are not the answer, our legal system is so expensive that its out of control. What we need is a no fault healthcare system like tha no fault auto insurnace. If you are hurt or wronged by a doctor or hospital then you go to binding arbitration, no lawsuits no outradgeous jury awards.

Here are the stats:

.

"Most of the prescription medicene consumed in this country is to treat overweight people."

Depression drugs are by far the most prescribed, followed by pain, and hypertension medication. You can’t simply come here and present fabrications as evidence. It discredits your entire argument and calls into question any other “evidence” you present.

Add up all the different drugs to treat the effects of obesity, not just he hypertension but also the drugs for diabetes and so on. But your point about what drugs are the most consumed in this country says it all. We are a sick unhealthy country an have to healthcare cost to prove it.

Here are the stats:

Spending on health administration and insurance cost $465 per person in the United States in 2004, which was seven times that of the OECD median

The wholly government run system in the U.K. absorbs 8% of their GDP, while our largely private system runs at 16%. Please explain how the evil, inefficient government bureaucrats pull off this miracle???  Why are private insurers administrative costs so high??

And the cost of all the goverment adminstrators are not going cost anything? The cost of goverment always costs more then the private sector. That $465 per person is not going to disapear with goverment run medicene but would probally increase.

How do you explain all the people from all over the world coming to the US for healthcare when they get seriously ill?

My hospital administrator acquaintance swears that Canadians come here in droves... he's just never met one since they don't come to his hospital. I forget if it's the Mayo or Cleveland clinic that caters to ME Sheiks who made huge donations. As they have in other countries that allow it. I don't disagree that there are places in the world with lousy medical care, lots of them, but I defy you to find numbers worth talking about from industrialized nations with national heath care programs.

Why i will agree in countries where the populations are healthy

Healthy with national health care systems. Who would have thought?

and not overweight

Americans do have more of a weight problem than most other countries, but that doesn't mean they don't deal with it also. Have you ever traveled to Europe?

You keep bring up obese people, which is valid. How would you suggest approaching that problem? Overweight, or not, they (we) are a part of the group also. How do you feel about a sin tax on sugary drinks, for example?

Ben

Well, illegal immigrants are a net drain on our health care system.

Sure. But to say that it represents a drain equal to 10% (to 20%, depending on which post you  read), is silly.

Then there is the idea that "underfunded" Medicare constitutes another 10% (to 20%, depending on which post)

I know a hospital administrator in Ohio. He HATES medicare, but has never said why, just that it was a "nightmare". Since hospitals are not required cater to medicare patients I asked why they bothered. His response? It was marginally profitable so they "suffered through it" (his is a "for profit" hospital).

If you add up Ocean's numbers (depending on which post) -- eliminate malpractice suits, "people from Mexico", medicare, fat people and the elderly -- health care would essentially be free for the rest of us. Of course it would be more expedient to just eliminate sick people all together 


Ben

These are estimates, but are the major costs of our healthcare system. And yes if you have a healthy population of people with no lawsuits healthcare is very very inexpensive. Both my wife and i are 52, we have 3 kids of which 2 are in college.  We all take very good care of our bodies. We have used healthcare for having babies and the kids shots. Thats it.
Healthy care is very inexpensive if evyeone does it right. Those who are born with medical problems and the elderly use healthcare along with people who have accidents. Thats what healthcare is suposed to be about, but in todays world we are such an unhealthy population that people use healthcare to stay alive for most of their lives, that is very very expensive.

We are a sick unhealthy country an have to healthcare cost to prove it.

BINGO!!

You finally get it. Combine that with your repeated "healthy people" comments about countries with health care available to everyone and what do you come up with?

And forget the illegal alien thing. The numbers aren't big enough. As well, many countries deal with illegal aliens, they just don't come from Mexico. Denmark, last I heard, had simply frozen immigration -- they're full 

Ben

If you are hurt or wronged by a doctor or hospital then you go to binding arbitration, no lawsuits no outrageous jury awards.

Let's try to keep this realistic please. You can't just deny rights to citizens.

Add up all the different drugs to treat the effects of obesity, not just he hypertension but also the drugs for diabetes and so on. But your point about what drugs are the most consumed in this country says it all. We are a sick unhealthy country an have to healthcare cost to prove it.

Please prove one of your claims, any one, just one, please! It's getting increasingly harder to take you serious at all.

And the cost of all the goverment adminstrators are not going cost anything? The cost of goverment always costs more then the private sector. That $465 per person is not going to disapear with goverment run medicene but would probally increase.

I never said that, and in fact you are clearly not listening. The point was, And I have made this repeatedly clear, is that government programs, be they Medicare or foreign examples have radically lower administrative costs. Soooo..Again... tap,tap,tap... I'm still patiently waiting for an explanation regarding private insurer’s astronomical administrative costs or how evil, inefficient government bureaucrats seem to radically outperform their private counterparts.

Waiting.

Here are the stats:

Lovely, but entirely pointless without attribution. And I will not accept Beck as a source.

Several points:

You will never subtract malpractice from the equation as occurs quite regularly on the real planet that we live on. And the only effect that capping penalties has is informing them they have little to worry about once they work that exact amount into their costs.

CBO studies based on states that have enacted tort reform concluded: (pg 48)

... subsequent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) that used a broader set of ailments found no effect of malpractice tort reform on health spending.  It concluded that “on the basis of existing studies and its own research, CBO believes that savings from reducing defensive medicine would be very small.”  A more recent CBO analysis found that studies on the relationship between tort reforms and health spending are “inconsistent” and “mixed.”  CBO concluded that tort reforms are sometimes associated with higher health spending, sometimes lower spending, and sometimes no effect on health spending

.
Caps on lawsuits are not the answer. The answer is a no fault health care system just like the no fault auto insurance. If you are hurt or wronged by a doctor of hospital you go to binding arbitration...no lawusits no outrageous payouts, but you are compensated for where you ahve been wronged.

Hmmm this didnt come out again in the issue of malpraitce reform. Here we go again.

Caps on malpratice awards are not the answer. We need to go to a no fault heathcare system. Just like no fault auto insurance. If you are wronged by a hospital or doctor you go to binding arbitration. Requirment are that if you are hurt by someone in medicene you have to get compinsated for your injurys.

Bingo problem solved, but you have lots and lots of very unhappy lawyers who get really mean when they get hungry.

Caps on malpratice awards are not the answer. We need to go to a no fault heathcare system. Just like no fault auto insurance. If you are wronged by a hospital or doctor you go to binding arbitration. Requirment are that if you are hurt by someone in medicene you have to get compinsated for your injurys.

Jebus. Again, read the linked CBO report. Tort reform has no effect on cost.

Administrative costs... waiting.

Well let me know if you want this material to read. This is part of the daily material we get from the meidcal and insurance industries concerning this issue. This is just one article.

10,000 US Physicians Appeal Directly to Their Senators

Today, All 100 US Senators Will Be Listening to Physicians When They Deliver The “US Physicians Appeal” to Capitol Hill

CAMBRIDGE, Mass.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--As Congress returns to session this morning, physicians will don their white coats and deliver the “US Physicians Appeal,” signed by over 10,000 physicians from across the US, directly to all 100 Senators at their Capitol Hill offices. The Appeal requests that policy makers include frontline working physicians in national healthcare strategy and pledges physicians’ commitment to true healthcare reform focused on the real sources of spiraling costs. Physicians leveraged the power of social media by using Sermo, the largest online physician community to make their voices heard and take an active role in the debate.

US physicians have a unique perspective on the systemic changes needed because they are on the forefront of care every day - in between patients, hospitals, Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance companies. Physicians more than any stakeholder group understand the need for pragmatic reform, not politically negotiated reform; and they aren’t wasting any time in telling lawmakers they must be included for solutions to work.

The Appeal will be hand delivered by physicians directly to all 100 Senators on Capitol Hill today, September 8, with A PRESS AVAILABILITY to include doctors and Dr. Daniel Palestrant taking place in Senator Tom Coburn’s (R-OKLAHOMA) office – Russell Senate Building/Room 172-at 230p EST where doctors will formally hand over the “US Physicians Appeal” for lawmakers’ consideration. Media is welcome*

“With the Appeal physicians are seeking participation from every member of the US Senate to work with us on bridging a communication gap dominated by the influence of special interests. Through an online forum lawmakers can discuss ideas and developments in the healthcare reform debate, in real time. If the physician voice is loud enough, it will be heard,” states Dr. Daniel Palestrant, Sermo CEO.

Senator Tom Coburn, (R-Oklahoma) a practicing physician himself, is the first to engage with physicians on Sermo, posting about tort reform and the establishment of expert panels to review medical disputes; and on the formation of independent health courts to determine penalties rather than a trial by jury. “My desire is to receive and pass on concerns and ideas to the politicians who are shaping the direction of our profession,” said Dr. Coburn.

Sermo is where over 110,000 physicians are using the power of social media to drive better patient care and have their voices heard by supporting the “US Physician’s Appeal”. By utilizing the Sermo platform, the physician community and lawmakers can dialogue to work together in bringing about meaningful, effective change. Lawmakers are invited to post questions, enter discussion topics and provide updates directly to the largest physicians-only online network.

Real time polling of physician opinion is a trademark of Sermo’s technology and provides insight for participants who engage. More than 2200 physicians have weighed in on Dr. Coburn’s post last week with their thoughts and ideas on how to make health care reform possible.

After the Appeal delivery, Senators will receive a call asking them to engage directly with their own physician constituency in the largest online physician community on Sermo – and address the real issues driving the healthcare crisis. With so much at stake, getting every perspective is critical to having an informed debate. The media and the public can follow doctors and lawmakers progress with the “US Physician’s Appeal” on .  

According to recent polling on Sermo, true healthcare reform will only succeed IF:

1. Tort and malpractice laws are reformed;

2. Billing is streamlined and pricing made transparent, ending systemic support of the AMA owned billing codes (CPT Codes);

3. The insurance industry is reformed;

4. Payment systems are simplified so they align with the growing need for preventive medicine.

About Sermo:

Founded in 2006, by Dr. Daniel Palestrant, Sermo represents the US physician’s community and is the largest, physicians-only online network where doctors go to ask and answer questions of each other, and share medical observations from their daily practice, revolutionizing the way doctors collaborate across the United States. Sermo is a key source of exclusive physician information, especially as the US health care reform debate continues.

Dr. Palestrant is a recognized, nonpartisan voice who speaks on behalf of physicians nationwide. Modern Physician recently named him one of the country’s “50 Most Powerful Physicians”, and BusinessWeek has named Sermo one of the “Top 50 Tech Startups” globally. He is an active participant in the Sermo community and he brings a unique voice and the unparalleled opinions and views of the Sermo network of doctors to interviews.

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