property line dispute/legal issue

I've been in the commercial architecture business for over 20 years and have ran into this type of stuff many times.  Our fence is on their property bologna.  I always make them prove it, because before they can prove it, they can't make me do anything.

Zillow, like the rest of them are cartoons.  I can show you property lines on city or county sites that show lines going through buildings.  Call them and they will tell you they are for reference only and nothing more and that, and that they are in fact cartoons.

There is a legal precedent for your right to have the propane tank right where it is, even if it's on a neighboring property.  It's called "prescriptive easement"

That's the term I was looking for! Thanks.

Don't forget the term Adverse Possession when researching as well.  I've found some counties refer to one over the other. 

I have an issue with my neighbor.  The previous owner built the fence about 20 years ago.  The new owners moved in maybe 4 or 5 years ago, and wanted to fence in more of their property. (We are each on 5 acre lots) She had it surveyed and discovered the discrepancy.  She talked to me about it, said that the part that I was actively maintaining and irrigating she would leave as-is, but would adjust the remaining part without fence to the surveyed line.  Fine.  Then she started with running a heavy string on the survey stakes.  Fine.  Then a rope.  Then she started to trim the plants.  I planted this stuff as a visual screen to provide privacy.  I talked to her about how that was no longer viable since she trimmed all the pine trees to 6' above the ground.  She just said trees like to be pruned and left.  Pissed me off.  I darn near took a chain saw and cut down every one of those trees.  They were my property, even though they where on her land I figured.  I calmed down and have ignored her since and she's left things alone for now. 

I've never questioned her ownership of the land.  That's not what prescriptive easement is about.  It's establishing your right to the access and use, in my case the landscaping unencumbered with a fence moved.  I've never brought up prescriptive easement.  Instead, I brought up their goat sheds and barn.  How the county permit system works and the repercussions if the county was to enforce the code about their shelters.  I spoke nonchalantly and not specific about her shelters, just shelters in general.  I think she got the hint. 

I'm also having problems with their dogs constant barking, but that's another story! Ha!

PG&E is responsible for the power line up to the meter.  From the meter is your responsibility.  They have to also maintain the line from damage, such as tree or other objects that could fall into it and cause damage.  Of course, they will try to convince you that it's your responsibility, but that is a bald face lie. 

Unfortunately, that is not the case in this situation. If there is only 1 house on a line, the rules change, and PG&E is actually not allowed to trim. I've talked to the guys who do the trimming and they'd be glad to do it, but can't. More to the point, I have taken this to the PUC, and they simply echoed everything that PG&E had told me (FWIW, I've got it officially, in writing). It makes absolutely no sense, since they have a truck up here during a storm every winter, and when the service entrance breaks off, the truck has to come twice. To me, the most annoying part is that when they come to reconnect the wires to the house, they gripe about it, as if it's my fault.

PG&E tried that shit with me and a few of my neighbors too; they would only trim the main line, and branches down to individual houses they said was the homeowner's responsibility.  Fine.  So I dropped a limb on their line and called them to tell them there was immediate danger with a tree branch in an active line.  I think I told them I thought I could hear arcing, but wasn't sure.  They came out to clear the line.  They trimmed it all.  Then I pointed out the neighbor's house and his line drop.  I told them he was elderly and if his power failed, due to untrimmed trees after being reported to PG&E, I'd be making a call to the local TV news station.  (This wasn't that blunt, but a pleasant discussion with the crew)  They trimmed his too. 

So, anyways, I called one of my buddies at SMUD where I worked, after I read your post.  He's a supervisor Arborist.  He assured me that SMUD is responsible for all their lines for trees.  Even the service drop from the street to the meter.  He also said they usually only trim those when they are reported by the homeowner or landlord.  So, I don't know if SMUD is responsible because they are a municipal utility (meaning it's quasi government) and PG&E isn't because they are a privately held utility or what.  But both are under PUC for liability if someone gets hurt on their power lines. 

BTW, after our fire, I put in the service drop from the street pole to my house underground.  PG&E charged me extra for that, but told me an overhead line was no charge.  Just thought I'd throw that in.

A lawyer friend suggested that title insurance might take care of issues such as this:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/should-title-insurance-claim-over-boundary-dispute-how.html

I'll have to take a look at that. She also claimed that her mother's homeowner's insurance took care of a similar situation, so I'll check into that too.

Instead, I brought up their goat sheds and barn.  How the county permit system works and the repercussions if the county was to enforce the code about their shelters.  I spoke nonchalantly and not specific about her shelters, just shelters in general.  I think she got the hint. 

Yes, that sort of thing is always an issue up here, where nothing ever seems to have been done legally. When we bought our house, we got some documentation from Santa Clara County that said "permitted for sale". Since then, I don't think we've done anything to the house itself that would be a major problem, but we did build 2 large (and extremely overbuilt) retaining walls, and I suspect this crazy lady will call out the inspectors to look at those if she doesn't get what she wants.

What is it about bat-shit-crazy ladies anyways??!!  They seem to be everywhere and seem to be completely irrational.  Like there's no dealing with them.  No compromise will be acceptable for them.  And they are very vindictive.  They will seem to calm down, even forget the whole situation, only to crawl back out of the woodwork with a whole new slant on the same rant they've been hooting over to begin with. 

Menopause I suppose.  Maybe I should offer my neighbor some pot and see if that calms her down.  Gotta love legal pot for solving neighbor disputes.   

Do not allow her to go online and look up property lines on either county or city sites.  Those maps are cartoons and are not accurate.

Thanks for the advice. In this neighborhood, I've seen people claim their lot line was 30' different than what their neighbor claims. And depending on which landmarks you look at, each can make a reasonable case based on those cartoonish maps.

    Had a neighbor pull that same shit with me over the location of my propane tank..  Alchoholic threats that he would hire a lawyer,, he  then paid a surveyor to come out.. The surveyor told him the same thing I had been saying. There's an easement and it's  recorded at the county planning.  The easement automatically  becomes an easement after you've used that persons property for a certain number of years. ( Like for driveways ).  I'm not sure how many years is required before that rule goes into effect. 

What is it about bat-shit-crazy ladies anyways??!!  They seem to be everywhere and seem to be completely irrational.  Like there's no dealing with them.  No compromise will be acceptable for them.  And they are very vindictive.  They will seem to calm down, even forget the whole situation, only to crawl back out of the woodwork with a whole new slant on the same rant they've been hooting over to begin with. 

Menopause I suppose.  Maybe I should offer my neighbor some pot and see if that calms her down.  Gotta love legal pot for solving neighbor disputes.   

It's on her to do list and it will stay there until it's off the list.  Make it so that it's not a bargain to pursue, then it will come off the list 

It's on her to do list and it will stay there until it's off the list.

Sadly, I believe you are speaking the truth here. 

I am so lucky to have good neighbors on both sides of my 16 acres.  In your case, suggest you read the title report closely, and then bite the bullet and hire a surveyor/engineer that is familiar with property line issues in SantaCruz hills.  Yea, it is the crazy lady's burden to prove her claim, but you want to know the facts in advance.

    Had a neighbor pull that same shit with me over the location of my propane tank..  Alchoholic threats that he would hire a lawyer,, he  then paid a surveyor to come out.. The surveyor told him the same thing I had been saying. There's an easement and it's  recorded at the county planning.  The easement automatically  becomes an easement after you've used that persons property for a certain number of years. ( Like for driveways ).  I'm not sure how many years is required before that rule goes into effect.

The "prescriptive easement" that Ski Pro mentioned happens after 5 years. The tank has been there for 8 years in plain sight, so it should be a no-brainer, even if it is on her property. I'm wondering what has to happen to make that official.

Btw, this lady is no longer local (just loco), and we got a letter from her lawyer. I think she's just trying to intimidate, which is her MO (the neighbors still foam at the mouth when they talk about her). In any case, I would like to get some sound legal advice without paying a fortune. If anybody has a lawyer recommendation, let me know...

The "prescriptive easement" that Ski Pro mentioned happens after 5 years. The tank has been there for 8 years in plain sight, so it should be a no-brainer, even if it is on her property. I'm wondering what has to happen to make that official.

Prescriptive easement is the legal right to use someone else's property. Adverse possession allows the trespasser to become the owner of the property. 


Either are made official when the land owner takes the case to court.  Here's a real good read on the topic from Caltrans.  It's pretty long by very thorough;

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/row/landsurveys/Study_material/California-Adverse-Possession.pdf

Here is a thread specific to the question and explicit to California.
https://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131326

It will tell you how to record your prescriptive easement.

Lots of info if you Google "how to record a prescriptive easement in California"
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+record+a+prescriptive+easement&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=how+to+record+a+prescriptive+easement+in+california

You may have adverse possession of the patch of property but probably do not have a prescriptive easement.  I ran into that problem myself in Arizona where the neighboring property owner divided the lot, did a new survey, and the new survey disagreed with the original aliquot survey.

In that situation, the surveyor is required to adjust all the property lines in the Section, but didn't (each new map costs the Engineer x-$$ to file).  When the property was sold, the new neighbor put up a fence down the middle of our lane.  I got the lane back by establishing adverse possession, not an easement, because I wasn't crossing the property, just taking a narrow band from the edge.

The adverse possession has to have been evident for a set period of time established in the laws.  In Arizona, it's ten years.  Don't know how long it takes in California.  The adverse possession can have begun before you bought the property - you don't have to have been the landowner for the full period it takes to establish possession.

The best advice I've seen here, is to do nothing at all - even with the wood pile - until the neighbor hires a surveyor to pin the property line.  Until that's done, they're just bluffing at this point in time. Their lawyer should have told them that.

The way this thread reads, anyone could say, "That hunk of land over there is mine, get off!" without showing proof.

Proof is required and you cannot be penalized until it is proven you're on someone else's property.

The best advice I've seen here, is to do nothing at all - even with the wood pile - until the neighbor hires a surveyor to pin the property line.  Until that's done, they're just bluffing at this point in time. Their lawyer should have told them that.

The way this thread reads, anyone could say, "That hunk of land over there is mine, get off!" without showing proof.

Proof is required and you cannot be penalized until it is proven you're on someone else's property.

• Yep, there's a world of difference between what one believes and what one knows, and this boils down to the facts; the Law deals only with matters of fact.
• As already noted, it is to your advantage to KNOW the facts of the property line in advance of her telling you what her surveyor finds.  A survey will likely cost you at least $10,000 for a full survey, but you could just get the metes and bounds for the property line in question, which would be much faster and cheaper.  There are 3 possible outcomes of a survey:  A) The line does not move, B) the line moves in her favor, C) the line moves in your favor.  Mind you, the likely outcome of a property line change would be that one end point of the line would move and the other would stay put.
• Your title insurance likely has a statute of limitations, probably 10 years, and will only kick in if you can prove that there was an error committed, like an erroneous survey.
• You only have a real problem when there's a problem, like when her attorney actually provides you with survey supported proof that you are in error.  Otherwise, they can't do anything.
• Shame on you for putting your lumber on her property; you now are feeling her aggravation for that.  Move the wood ASAP, take a photo of the before and after situations, send those to her attorney, and then you might get some relief from her bile...for free.  Don't bring up the easement or adverse possession concepts, leave those to your attorney.
• If moving the lumber doesn't prevent her from pursuing legal action against you, then it will be time to hire a real estate attorney.
• I too am an architect, and my understanding is that the utility owns and is responsible for all components of the "grid" up to the point it physically connects to your property's point of termination (the meter), and the utility actually owns the meter (even though you actually paid for/provided their prescribed meter), which means that you are not legally allowed to even touch/tamper with the meter -- you are only allowed to touch the lugs and wires that emerge from the homeowner side of the meter.  Furthermore, all property owners have granted the utilities implied or actual easements as soon as they allow the utilities appurtenances to enter or cross over their property; which means that for those of us who have underground power connections (a good thing) the utility's easement includes ripping up (and patching) the yard in order to service the buried cables.

Conclusion:  Move the damn wood and sit tight.  For the PG&E matter, call your county supervisor's office (City if you're in an incorporated area) for assistance.