property line dispute/legal issue

We bought our house in Redwood Estates (in the Santa Cruz mountains) about 10 years ago, and the lady who owned the house before us still owns the land on 3 sides of our lot. In this neighborhood, she's known to be troublemaker and, true to form, today we got a letter from her lawyer saying that we need to move our propane tank off of "her" property, and remove a pile of wood. The wood is clearly on her property, and I'll get rid of that, but I think the propane tank is on the edge of our property, although the lines tend to be fairly indistinct up here. (For example, last summer, San Jose Water surveyed the neighborhood because they plan to replace all water of the water lines. I talked to the surveyor, and he claimed that property lines often don't even meet where they are supposed to.)

The propane tank was installed several years ago, and this is the first she's said anything about it, although the letter claims that "this is not the first time" that she asked us to move the tank. In fact, I've only seen her once since we moved in, and that was last summer. At that time, she mentioned the wood pile, but said nothing about the propane tank.

It might also be relevant that there were lots of undisclosed problems with this house when we moved in. And, currently, there are trees/branches on her property that threaten our house, that she will never trim. (Since we're the only house on our road, PG&E will not trim anything---that's the land owner's responsibility. We have branches fall on the power lines every year, and twice it has broken the service entrance off of the top of our house. Both times, those branches fell from her property.)

I'll talk to a lawyer friend, but was just wondering if anyone here has any thoughts on how to deal with this situation. My thinking is that I'll respond saying that I'll get rid of the wood pile, but not move the propane tank, since I think it's on my property. At the least I'd need to see an official survey showing that that's not the case. And I'd also point out that she needs to do some (expensive) tree trimming to protect the power lines.

Sorry you gotta deal with that, just sucks having to go through that with neighbors.  I have a neighbor with this crazy vine type tree right at the fence line that absolutely smothers our fruit trees.  She used to trim it and keep it a reasonable height but for past several years, its been growing out of control.  I've asked her to trim it many times like she used to in the past but she just says yeah and never does it.

After doing research, I've discovered that trees in your neighbors yard that extends into your yard, its technically up to both of you to come to an agreement on trimming and maintenance.  And if a tree branch falls on your property, its your responsibility.  Sounds lame to me, especially if your neighbor refuses to trim or remove the tree.  Hope you get your problem resolved.

After doing research, I've discovered that trees in your neighbors yard that extends into your yard, its technically up to both of you to come to an agreement on trimming and maintenance.  And if a tree branch falls on your property, its your responsibility.

Wow, that would really suck. Here, we have huge redwood and douglas fir trees above the power lines. There are 4 different land owners along our drive and PG&E won't trim there. None of the land owners is interested in doing anything about it. In fact, one of those land owners called the cops when the community maintenance guy was trimming some twigs along our drive. So, now our drive often looks like the entrance to the Bat Cave. The worst part is that trees and branches will (again) fall on the power lines during storms, and there's nothing we can do about it. We've got a standby generator, but it's still a pretty annoying thing to deal with.

The lady who owns the land directly adjacent to our house is a major league nut-case. She owns 4.5 worthless acres surrounding our house that she bought from the community for $20,000. For the past several years, she's had it listed as 3 separate lots with a total asking price of about $1M. Of the 3 lots, 2 are essentially vertical and clearly unbuildable. The one that might conceivably be flat enough to build on has serious access problems and crosses over a stream that flows into Lexington Reservoir (i.e., the water supply for Los Gatos), which is a another complicating factor. I suspect she thinks that if she hassles us enough, we might buy some of the adjacent land, just to get rid of her. But, that's never going to happen.

(revised)


If I am not clear which party is correct (which sounds like your case), I would not do or move anything.  However, I would inform her stating such action (and will keep a receipt of delivery).  In addition, I would tell her that I believe her statement is not valid since I have not seen any proper supporting documentation.  I would word such letter in a friendly manner and clear.  I might address the lawyer and refer to her as the lawyer's client.  But that's just me.  I am guessing that there is a decent chance that she may harass your realtor as well.


However, if you are going to end up doing a survey anyway (especially if it's required prior to any sale), might as well do that now and be sure to bring up the accusation to the surveyor.  If you do end up with the survey, ask her lawyer to split the bill (though you have to make sure that the survey result is your property and she only gets a copy).


I used to have a property line dispute with a neighbor, but that was more of an emotional issue.  I ended up selling the house and a survey was required prior to a sale.  Guess whose property was located incorrectly?  Not mine! He was a nice guy, but come on, a property line dispute?  If it's close enough and there is no building/serious issues, who cares?  Especially in the woods ... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest).  I wouldn't send her that link, it probably will just piss her off ... 

I'd move the wood pile, sit back and have a nice Imperial Stout, then go to bed and call it good. Period.
See what happens after that.

We're not looking to sell anytime soon, and getting survey done up here is very expensive. My thinking is that it should be her responsibility to provide evidence that we are on her property, which would require a survey. I doubt she'd be willing to pay for that, so it might just end there. I'll go ahead and move the wood (actually, lumber, and mostly usable redwood). The propane tank is a bigger hassle, so I'm hoping that can ultimately stay put.

There is a legal precedent for your right to have the propane tank right where it is, even if it's on a neighboring property.  It's called "prescriptive easement"

In order for someone to prove he has a prescriptive easement, he must prove, by clear and convincing evidence, that:

    He and his predecessors in interest used the alleged easement area in a manner which was adverse and hostile to the owner of the property;

    The use which he made of the alleged easement area was continuous and
uninterrupted for more than five years;

    The owner of the property had actual notice of the adverse use, or the
adverse use was so open, unequivocal, obvious, and notorious that owner must
have known about it.

--------------------------------

ESTABLISHING A PRESCRIPTIVE EASEMENT
Typically, a prescriptive easement is created when someone uses land for
access, such as a driveway or beach path or shortcut. But many times, a
neighbor has simply begun using a part of the adjoining property. He may
have farmed it or even have built on it. After the time requirement is
met, the trespasser gains a legal right to use the property.

---------------------------------------

Also, check into Adverse Possession

Adverse possession
Hostile claim
Actual, open and notorious possession
Exclusive and continuous possession

PG&E is responsible for the power line up to the meter.  From the meter is your responsibility.  They have to also maintain the line from damage, such as tree or other objects that could fall into it and cause damage.  Of course, they will try to convince you that it's your responsibility, but that is a bald face lie. 

Tell them you found an aluminum ladder long enough to lean against their wires while you trim those trees and see how fast they'll tell you not to.  Ha! 

The PUC will back you up on this and most likely fine the utility for placing you in harm's way by encouraging you to work within the danger area of energized lines.  Cutting branches that could fall across the lines and they told you to, no, told you it's your responsibility, borders on criminal. 

If you call again and they tell you again, tell the rep you are recording the conversation for legal purposes and to submit to the PUC with a complaint that the utility company refuses to address a safety issue involving their equipment on or across your property. 

BTW, I worked for an electric company for over 30 years. 

We're not looking to sell anytime soon, and getting survey done up here is very expensive. My thinking is that it should be her responsibility to provide evidence that we are on her property, which would require a survey. I doubt she'd be willing to pay for that, so it might just end there. I'll go ahead and move the wood (actually, lumber, and mostly usable redwood). The propane tank is a bigger hassle, so I'm hoping that can ultimately stay put.

Here's a thought;
Get a couple buddies, some orange safety vests and a transit.  Have your buddies make a production of surveying the property, marking it with stakes and ribbon.  Do this while she's able to observe, perhaps even notify her of the survey.  My guess is that she'll assume everything is legit.  If she does start to ask questions, have the buddies tell her that they are being paid by you and they are not being paid to answer her questions.  That ought to shut her up.

PG&E is responsible for the power line up to the meter.  From the meter is your responsibility.  They have to also maintain the line from damage, such as tree or other objects that could fall into it and cause damage.  Of course, they will try to convince you that it's your responsibility, but that is a bald face lie. 

Unfortunately, that is not the case in this situation. If there is only 1 house on a line, the rules change, and PG&E is actually not allowed to trim. I've talked to the guys who do the trimming and they'd be glad to do it, but can't. More to the point, I have taken this to the PUC, and they simply echoed everything that PG&E had told me (FWIW, I've got it officially, in writing). It makes absolutely no sense, since they have a truck up here during a storm every winter, and when the service entrance breaks off, the truck has to come twice. To me, the most annoying part is that when they come to reconnect the wires to the house, they gripe about it, as if it's my fault.

I have 2 homes in 2 different states (MO & MN), none of which are California. In each case the seller was required to furnish a survey. The survey could have been the initial one, but it had to have clear property and easement lines. California does not require the seller to know what they are selling? 

There is a legal precedent for your right to have the propane tank right where it is, even if it's on a neighboring property.  It's called "prescriptive easement"

That's the term I was looking for! Thanks.

There is a legal precedent for your right to have the propane tank right where it is, even if it's on a neighboring property.  It's called "prescriptive easement"

That's the term I was looking for! Thanks.

+1.  Thanks for the education, Jerry.  I was hoping you would chime in, 'glad that you did!

She needs to prove that your tanks on her property.  She needs to hire a civil engineer and show you exactly where the property lines are.  She needs someone to stake out the property line if she is going to make that accusation.

Do not allow her to go online and look up property lines on either county or city sites.  Those maps are cartoons and are not accurate.

She needs to prove that your tanks on her property.  She needs to hire a civil engineer and show you exactly where the property lines are.  She needs someone to stake out the property line if she is going to make that accusation.

Do not allow her to go online and look up property lines on either county or city sites.  Those maps are cartoons and are not accurate.

Sound advice!

Zillow will show property lines.  However, they can be inaccurate and should only be used for rough idea of where things are and where you MIGHT find the property corner monuments.  (A monument is usually a 3/4" pipe with a threaded cap on the top stamped with a big T with a property number on each side of the T.  Like this;

4T5