2015 AOTY/DOTY suggestions

Here are some rules that I would like to see implicated for DOTY:

1. You must use a hawg trough. There is no "Excuse" that you cannot afford one. If you can afford to spear fish, you can afford a hawg Trough from Wallmart.

2. Remove the "no chumming" rule. There are enough rules as it is and there is no way to regulate this rule. IMO, anytime someone puts a rockfish on their shooting line or guts a fish in the water they are chumming.

We have all seen the Videos of guys swimming with a stringer of rock fish on their gun.

3. I like the idea that the winner of DOTY wins a kayak. It takes a huge amount of time, dedication and money (gas money) to win DOTY. That effort should be rewarded.

Thanks Jim,
Not angry, just wanted to clear the air as to my reasons for not joining as I have in the past. Still a proud suporter of NCKA / PIF when I can ;0)

Some really good input. All though I don't have enough free time to give to participate in such a Great Event and challenge. Aoty / Doty is almost in my sights with the childrens needs almost completed.  lol. never ending. Hopeing for a Great 2015 !

But definitely a BIG HOORAY for BIG JIM who must regulate all these areas so that everything is tracked . I couldn't even imagine having to come home from a long day of work and have to try and track all these stats on my own free time. Props to you Jim !!!

Keep up the good work and ESPECIALLY on all the GREAT work for PIF.
And of course all the Men and Women who contribute there time and money. Bravo !!!

Alex

Here are some rules that I would like to see implicated for DOTY:

1. You must use a hawg trough. There is no "Excuse" that you cannot afford one. If you can afford to spear fish, you can afford a hawg Trough from Wallmart.

2. Remove the "no chumming" rule. There are enough rules as it is and there is no way to regulate this rule. IMO, anytime someone puts a rockfish on their shooting line or guts a fish in the water they are chumming.

We have all seen the Videos of guys swimming with a stringer of rock fish on their gun.

3. I like the idea that the winner of DOTY wins a kayak. It takes a huge amount of time, dedication and money (gas money) to win DOTY. That effort should be rewarded.

1. I see what you're saying...but what if someone's trough gets broken, or they forget it at home, are we gonna DQ their fish until they get a new one? Seems like that wouldn't be very fair...FWIW, I've seen just as many crappy pics on hawg troughs as I have taken with yard sticks, and other homemade devices...and many pics with homemade devices that are totally good as well...you submitted one a few years ago with a right angle and a brick that was great!

http://doty.norcalkayakanglers.com/catches/253

2. You think having rockfish strung on your gun is the same as putting a bait bag on the bottom and then checking to see what comes out??

I've never shot a fish using a bait bag so really can't speak to that, but I kinda think there is a big difference...

If chumming/baitbag doesn't provide an advantage then why would anyone care about having there be a rule against it?

As far as enforcing it....this is all pretty much on the honor system dude...someone could go out and hook and line a big ass deepwater verm and take a pic of it and say they shot it and we really wouldn't know....or take a butt on SCUBA or use a baitbag for a Ling or whatever....

If the committtee hears rumors about rule infractions then we would ask the person...that's about all we can do...

If someone is cheating to try and get AOTY/DOTY entries I'm pretty sure word would eventually get out and that person would be publicly shamed...

3. New kayaks are nice! 

 

Sincerely,

Jim

 

Here are some rules that I would like to see implicated for DOTY:

1. You must use a hawg trough. There is no "Excuse" that you cannot afford one. If you can afford to spear fish, you can afford a hawg Trough from Wallmart.

2. Remove the "no chumming" rule. There are enough rules as it is and there is no way to regulate this rule. IMO, anytime someone puts a rockfish on their shooting line or guts a fish in the water they are chumming.

We have all seen the Videos of guys swimming with a stringer of rock fish on their gun.

3. I like the idea that the winner of DOTY wins a kayak. It takes a huge amount of time, dedication and money (gas money) to win DOTY. That effort should be rewarded.

1. I see what you're saying...but what if someone's trough gets broken, or they forget it at home, are we gonna DQ their fish until they get a new one? Seems like that wouldn't be very fair...FWIW, I've seen just as many crappy pics on hawg troughs as I have taken with yard sticks, and other homemade devices...and many pics with homemade devices that are totally good as well...you submitted one a few years ago with a right angle and a brick that was great!

http://doty.norcalkayakanglers.com/catches/253

2. You think having rockfish strung on your gun is the same as putting a bait bag on the bottom and then checking to see what comes out??

I've never shot a fish using a bait bag so really can't speak to that, but I kinda think there is a big difference...

If chumming/baitbag doesn't provide an advantage then why would anyone care about having there be a rule against it?

As far as enforcing it....this is all pretty much on the honor system dude...someone could go out and hook and line a big ass deepwater verm and take a pic of it and say they shot it and we really wouldn't know....or take a butt on SCUBA or use a baitbag for a Ling or whatever....

If the committtee hears rumors about rule infractions then we would ask the person...that's about all we can do...

If someone is cheating to try and get AOTY/DOTY entries I'm pretty sure word would eventually get out and that person would be publicly shamed...

3. New kayaks are nice! 

 

Sincerely,

Jim

FWIW Garrett, I can think of only one time that I have seen a Ling come after a fish that I had strung on my shooting line...I left the gun to mark a scallop for sharkbait and a Ling came out to chew on a kelpy on the line and sharkbait grabbed the gun and shot it...

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=49935.0

I've had way more lings come out after fish that I just shot and haven't retrieved yet than I have had come after the fish strung on my shooting line.

I really think there is a HUGE difference between that kind of encounter and intentionally filling a mesh bag with bait and putting it out on the bottom to try and attrach fish out of nearby holes to shoot...

The Triton X comp folks seem to think chumming provides an advantage as well:

http://www.freediveshop.com/product_info.php?cPath=101&products_id=782

2014 Triton X Open Rules

1) Hunting by means of FREEDIVING. No tanks or re-breathers.

2) No SCUBA scouting

3) All divers must check-in at Caspar Beach RV Park and Campground.
•Check In starts at 6:30 am. You may begin diving immediately after you check in.
•Divers must check back in no later than 1:30 pm. You must check back in to receive your shirt and food ticket.

4) Motor-powered boats are prohibited. All other forms of transportation are allowed. Kayaking is encouraged.

5) Only spearguns loaded by the diver’s own strength are permitted.

6) No chumming.

7) Competitors must abide by all California Fish & Wildlife rules.

8 ) Competitors are responsible for taking home their own catch.

9) Infractions of the above listed rules, including the listing of eligible species below, the DFG regulations, or unsportsmanlike conduct will result in disqualification.

I'll talk about it with the other members of the committee though and see what they think...

 

Sincerely,

Jim

Out of the 200 (~250) or so trout entries on AOTY, only ~10 of them are non-Rainbow.  Most of them (which I can confirm) are from Almanor & 3 of them are from Clayman.  If this is your way of inviting others to Almanor, I’m in!!!  But I think some people will have problems IDing trout species, if we start breaking down more species (Cutthroat, Sea-run Brown etc…) and I do not want to give more work for the AOTY committee.  Because of that, I disagree with adding more trout species (we have already divided steelhead & trout). Even if we decided to add Brown, I don't think it's necessary to change the points, since there are lots of bigger Rainbows entered in AOTY. 
 I have said from the beginning (when bsteves & PapaBill wanted to add more species)  that I really think we should combine SMB & Spot because of same reason...

The reason only ten out of 200+ entries were not rainbow trout is because there was no incentive for AOTY participants to go out searching for browns.  Rainbows are everywhere and there are plenty of places to catch big ones all across NorCal, whether it be tailwater fisheries or pay-to-play lakes stocked with monster rainbows.  Brown trout are more well-distributed than some other fishes on the AOTY list.  It’s not like they’re only found in Lake Almanor.  Honestly, if I wanted a monster brown trout I’d rather head to Tahoe, or Stampede, or Bowman.  Places like Tahoe have browns and they’re closer to most NCKA members than Almanor.

The only species I’d like to see parsed out from the “trout” category is brown trout.  So there’d be a “trout” category that included all trout/char species except mackinaw and brown trout, and a “brown trout” category.  As for mistaking rainbows for browns or vise-versa: wouldn’t it be the same as having to differentiate between a coho and a Chinook, or a smallmouth and a spot, or a landlocked Chinook and a kokanee?  I have faith in AOTY participants’ identification skills.  And if there was a questionable ID, then we could put it out in the open for people to discuss on the board.  I believe with our NCKA powers combined, we could come to a successful ID  .  Yes, even if someone submits an entry of a chrome sea-run brown trout from the Trinity River.

Sure there are a lot of larger rainbows entered into AOTY.  That’s because nobody was given the incentive to go after large brown trout.  Browns weren’t a separate category in AOTY, and rainbows are everywhere.  It’s not like I’m proposing Sacramento perch or some obscure species of sucker.  Brown trout have a wide range.

Then there’s the differences in techniques when targeting browns compared to rainbows.  An angler soaking a ball of Powerbait can tempt a big stocker rainbow, but that method is unlikely to catch a large brown trout’s attention.  Similarly, ripping a 7 inch minnow plug in early spring is more likely to net you a big brown instead of a rainbow.  I believe these differences in technique merit listing brown trout in their own category even more.

There could even be something said about parsing out crappie from other sunfish…

Yes, of course.   If we start making arguments of class/order/family, then AOTY specification won't make sense since AOTY was developed for fisherman & commonly targeted game species (trust me I personally argued w/ bsteves back when).  If no one else is having a problem with it, then why do we have to change it (I do believe there are problems with SMB/Spot though)?

I really don't see the point in arguing about which species is easy or hard to catch because that's just like old discussions of bait vs artificial, paddle vs peddle etc... and it basically comes down to personal preference.

I knew introducing 10 more species would keep bring up this type of discussion; however, I also believe that it welcomed more people to AOTY.
I can see you have some type of personal connection with Brown trout, like others do for Pacific Halibut, White Seabass, Sturgeon, or Steelhead. Some might say Carp, Pikeminnows, American Shad and goes on and on..., when do we draw the line or do we just keep adding more species?

I think the balance we have on 20 species is pretty good; 8 salt, 8 fresh & 4 anadromous.  Steelhead is only retainable in freshwater & sturgeon is commonly caught in Bay to River, so adding another freshwater species, some might argue that it helps our valley folks (I'm sure it helps me too).
Maybe, you can introduce Brown trout fishery by holding a get together or MBF event and avoid the unnecessary change in AOTY.

I would definitely like to see a poll to see how many people are interested. If adding Brown trout increases the likelihood of some new people entering AOTY, then the committee might like it!

Naoaki

Sent from my iPhone

Yes, of course.   If we start making arguments of class/order/family, then AOTY specification won't make sense since AOTY was developed for fisherman & commonly targeted game species (trust me I personally argued w/ bsteves back when).  If no one else is having a problem with it, then why do we have to change it (I do believe there are problems with SMB/Spot though)?

I really don't see the point in arguing about which species is easy or hard to catch because that's just like old discussions of bait vs artificial, paddle vs peddle etc... and it basically comes down to personal preference.

I knew introducing 10 more species would keep bring up this type of discussion; however, I also believe that it welcomed more people to AOTY.
I can see you have some type of personal connection with Brown trout, like others do for Pacific Halibut, White Seabass, Sturgeon, or Steelhead. Some might say Carp, Pikeminnows, American Shad and goes on and on..., when do we draw the line or do we just keep adding more species?

I think the balance we have on 20 species is pretty good; 8 salt, 8 fresh & 4 anadromous.  Steelhead is only retainable in freshwater & sturgeon is commonly caught in Bay to River, so adding another freshwater species, some might argue that it helps our valley folks (I'm sure it helps me too).
Maybe, you can introduce Brown trout fishery by holding a get together or MBF event and avoid the unnecessary change in AOTY.

I would definitely like to see a poll to see how many people are interested. If adding Brown trout increases the likelihood of some new people entering AOTY, then the committee might like it!

Naoaki

Sent from my iPhone

Frankly I don't see why it'd be such a huge problem adding species to the list.  Sure, I fish for brown trout a lot.  Why should that disqualify me from suggesting they be added to the list?  You don't see me advocating that striped bass, white seabass, Pacific halibut, sturgeon, or the myriad other species that are already on the list that I'm highly unlikely to target be removed.  I wouldn't want them to be removed; in fact, I'd prefer just more species be added in general.  You seemed fine with bringing the flounder category back.  But you poo-poo the idea of brown trout on the list.  Would you react the same way if I'd suggested carp be added to the list? 

As for "ease of catch": I apologize if I was implying that a large stocker rainbow is easy to catch because it'll eat Powerbait.  When soaking any bait, it's about being at the right place at the right time, whether it's Powerbait for rainbows or a nightcrawler for browns.  I wasn't talking about difficulty in catching browns: I was talking about the different techniques that tend to work better for them compared to other species.  You can say the same thing about every single species on the AOTY list.  Browns can be stupid-easy to catch at times.  Just like everything else.

On the one hand, you're suggesting "don't fix it if it ain't broke" with the current list of species.  Yet you mention there could be room for improvement in AOTY by potentially lumping smallmouth and spotted bass into one category.  If that occurs, then we'd be down to 7 freshwater, 8 saltwater, and 4 anadromous, thus throwing off what you consider to be "balanced" (For what it's worth, I'd prefer keeping spots and smallies in their own respective categories).  As for giving an advantage to "valley folks": just throw on another saltwater species, like a non-halibut flatfish category (which you were supportive of adding).  Presto!  Nine FW, nine SW, and four anadromous.  Or we could throw a few more species on there.  Why not?  It's not like we're adding every cyprinid in CA to the list to where we'd need a certified ichthyologist on the committee.  I'd be jazzed with seeing carp, pikeminnow, and American shad on there as well.

I don't see the need to "introduce the brown trout fishery" to anyone here.  There are people on NCKA who've been fishing for brown trout before I was even born.  It's not a new fishery.  They've been here for centuries.  As for calling this an "unnecessary change": why would you call it unnecessary?  You said it yourself that you thought having smallmouth and spotted bass in separate categories is no bueno.  And you were fine with adding the flatfish category.  Yet you're showing all this resistance against adding brown trout to the list.  Jeez, does this mean that just because I live near a lake with brown trout means I can't suggest adding them as their own category?

As for potentially attracting more anglers to sign up for Angler of the Year: we won't know unless we try.  I'm down to start a poll to see what others think.  If the majority doesn't like the idea of brown trout in their own category, then I'll roll with it.  But if the majority says they'd like to give it a shot, I don't see the harm in giving brown trout a 1-year trial run.  Why not?  AOTY rules obviously aren't set in stone.  They change every year!  It's like an 'adaptive management plan' for a fishing tournament.  It's not like we're rewriting the Constitution here.


PS: Despite our differing viewpoints, I still love you Naoaki  .

Yes, of course.   If we start making arguments of class/order/family, then AOTY specification won't make sense since AOTY was developed for fisherman & commonly targeted game species (trust me I personally argued w/ bsteves back when).  If no one else is having a problem with it, then why do we have to change it (I do believe there are problems with SMB/Spot though)?

I really don't see the point in arguing about which species is easy or hard to catch because that's just like old discussions of bait vs artificial, paddle vs peddle etc... and it basically comes down to personal preference.

I knew introducing 10 more species would keep bring up this type of discussion; however, I also believe that it welcomed more people to AOTY.
I can see you have some type of personal connection with Brown trout, like others do for Pacific Halibut, White Seabass, Sturgeon, or Steelhead. Some might say Carp, Pikeminnows, American Shad and goes on and on..., when do we draw the line or do we just keep adding more species?

I think the balance we have on 20 species is pretty good; 8 salt, 8 fresh & 4 anadromous.  Steelhead is only retainable in freshwater & sturgeon is commonly caught in Bay to River, so adding another freshwater species, some might argue that it helps our valley folks (I'm sure it helps me too).
Maybe, you can introduce Brown trout fishery by holding a get together or MBF event and avoid the unnecessary change in AOTY.

I would definitely like to see a poll to see how many people are interested. If adding Brown trout increases the likelihood of some new people entering AOTY, then the committee might like it!

Naoaki

Sent from my iPhone

Frankly I don't see why it'd be such a huge problem adding species to the list.  Sure, I fish for brown trout a lot.  Why should that disqualify me from suggesting they be added to the list?  You don't see me advocating that striped bass, white seabass, Pacific halibut, sturgeon, or the myriad other species that are already on the list that I'm highly unlikely to target be removed.  I wouldn't want them to be removed; in fact, I'd prefer just more species be added in general.  You seemed fine with bringing the flounder category back.  But you poo-poo the idea of brown trout on the list.  Would you react the same way if I'd suggested carp be added to the list? 

As for "ease of catch": I apologize if I was implying that a large stocker rainbow is easy to catch because it'll eat Powerbait.  When soaking any bait, it's about being at the right place at the right time, whether it's Powerbait for rainbows or a nightcrawler for browns.  I wasn't talking about difficulty in catching browns: I was talking about the different techniques that tend to work better for them compared to other species.  You can say the same thing about every single species on the AOTY list.  Browns can be stupid-easy to catch at times.  Just like everything else.

On the one hand, you're suggesting "don't fix it if it ain't broke" with the current list of species.  Yet you mention there could be room for improvement in AOTY by potentially lumping smallmouth and spotted bass into one category.  If that occurs, then we'd be down to 7 freshwater, 8 saltwater, and 4 anadromous, thus throwing off what you consider to be "balanced" (For what it's worth, I'd prefer keeping spots and smallies in their own respective categories).  As for giving an advantage to "valley folks": just throw on another saltwater species, like a non-halibut flatfish category (which you were supportive of adding).  Presto!  Nine FW, nine SW, and four anadromous.  Or we could throw a few more species on there.  Why not?  It's not like we're adding every cyprinid in CA to the list to where we'd need a certified ichthyologist on the committee.  I'd be jazzed with seeing carp, pikeminnow, and American shad on there as well.

I don't see the need to "introduce the brown trout fishery" to anyone here.  There are people on NCKA who've been fishing for brown trout before I was even born.  It's not a new fishery.  They've been here for centuries.  As for calling this an "unnecessary change": why would you call it unnecessary?  You said it yourself that you thought having smallmouth and spotted bass in separate categories is no bueno.  And you were fine with adding the flatfish category.  Yet you're showing all this resistance against adding brown trout to the list.  Jeez, does this mean that just because I live near a lake with brown trout means I can't suggest adding them as their own category?

As for potentially attracting more anglers to sign up for Angler of the Year: we won't know unless we try.  I'm down to start a poll to see what others think.  If the majority doesn't like the idea of brown trout in their own category, then I'll roll with it.  But if the majority says they'd like to give it a shot, I don't see the harm in giving brown trout a 1-year trial run.  Why not?  AOTY rules obviously aren't set in stone.  They change every year!  It's like an 'adaptive management plan' for a fishing tournament.  It's not like we're rewriting the Constitution here.


PS: Despite our differing viewpoints, I still love you Naoaki  .

Haha, I love you too, Chris!
I am just voicing my opinion like you are on this thread since BigJim's asking about our thoughts.
I have nothing against you or Brown trout.  As I said before, I'm pretty sure that adding Brown trout will help me but I have a different view from you.
I believe since we can only retain Steelhead in freshwater (ATOY only allows retainable fish) and White Sturgeon fishery most commonly occurs in San Francisco Bay and up; those two species are more likely to be considered as freshwater species.  I think adding flounders, which are found in blackish to salt water, might be a good trade especially since they were once in the AOTY species.
I had some problems in the past about SMB/spot, so I'm just suggesting to change it.
Also my opinions are somewhat coming from the old 10 species AOTY contenders that were concerned about watering down the competition by adding more species. I know it has been lots of changes but keeping some consistency will keep the AOTY more like a NCKA trend.
It is ultimately the AOTY committee's decision, so I think making polls are a good thing.
Whatever the AOTY judges decide I will play & follow the rules!

Naoaki

It would be cool if brown trout were a seperate category. People wouldn't have ID issues so it probably wouldn't be a major burden for the AOTY committee. BUT...they would obviously be scored differently than regular trout...perhaps 7pts per inch instead of 8pts per inch...because they grow larger and faster than most other trout. In which case, they wouldn't be worth as much points...compared to the current scoring categories. So that makes it even less desirable to target & enter them for AOTY. With the current scoring...a huge brown would be worth hella points!

Ive only participated this year but heres my opinion. If the main goal is to get more people to play then I think that the more species added the better. With more targets people could be more competitive without traveling further. If this is the case I would make crappie its own category and add carp, shad, brookie, and brown trout to the list. Some salt water species could be added also to even things out, im not familiar enough with them to provide a possible list. Still best 10 from the list, highest average wins. Kayak to the winner.
 
 Im not sure of how things work as far as the donations of kayaks or how the payment fees are used but I think that DOTY and AOTY  should have separate prizes for the winners. I personally do not like the raffle idea this year but that may be cause I stand a chance of winning and if I do I may feel a little bitter if someone who did not even fish takes home the yak, but hey I knew what I was signing up for! One thing I wasnt aware of and it may just be there are more hardcore divers...is just by looking at the leader boards it seems easier for the divers to collect multiple species ie raffle tickets than the pole anglers, something that may be looked at if future competitions are comingled.  Though I do not pay much attention to it other than reading and watching big jims awesome reports the DOTY seems to have quite a few participants and I do not feel it would be fair to give a kayak to the winner of AOTY and not the DOTY if we all payed the same.

I like the idea of the optional length deduction for open mouth. Ive seen some trophy fish DQ'd because of a small gap, fish that would be bigger than most entered even if they had a 1" deduction for open mouth. Its a shame to see these fish not counted. Then there is the FACT that it is not always easy to get the buggers to keep that mouth closed. The extra time out of the water combined with the pressure to try and keep it on the board reduces its survival rate. It is MUCH quicker to just slap it on there with the lip gripper in lip and snap a pic kayak wars style. This would be good for people who just wanted to add the specie and not worrying about the score. This could help increase participation as well.

Remember these are just my opinions do what you want with them

I like the format the way it is.
I like the raffle idea.
My .02...keep it simple.

More species is better.  Need to add thresher sharks!

AOTY & DOTY should not be in the same competition.  If I go for RF I have a chance of catching a ling, a cabbie, greenling or 1 of the many RF species.  A diver on the same day can spear all those and then break it down to all the RF subspecies.  They are 2 different competitions with 2 different sets of rules.  Multiple divers have 20 pts but 0 hook & liners. 

I am not a fan of raffles instead of grand prizes to the winners.  With that being said the rules this year are clearly stated and the way to win is to gather more species, not big point scoring fish.  So this year the strategy is different.  I'm not close to the leader but I am spending time & money in pursuit of fish and if I win I will keep and enjoy the prize!

I am torn on the mouth closed rule.  On one hand I love the quality of pictures on AOTY with all the mouths consistently closed but I am much harder on the fish to achieve this.  It's much easier and faster to use the grippers and probably better for the fish.  Maybe a pt deduction for open mouth? 

I'm all for brown trout being added.  I caught a 26" brown in Monterey County last year so they aren't that hard to come by.  I'd actually like to lower the pts for friggin truck trout!  Catching a fish that has grown up in captivity and then released is not my idea of sporting. 

I will play next year with the current format or changed.  Doesn't matter to me.  My goal is to participate in NCKA and AOTY and be a contributing part of the community.

Josh

1.  Include the opportunity to submit catches made within the entire state.
2.  Allow lip grippers if "it is determined said grippers do not increase the length of the fish."  i.e. a cabbie, ling or catfish measured while on its belly having grippers in the mouth.

Thanks for starting the conversation Jim.

Aaron

Here are some that I have seen either via PM or on threads...not saying I agree or disagree with any of these, just posting up ideas I have heard:

1. Make Brown Trout and Rainbow Trout seperate species (AOTY)
2. Adjust wording of rules to try and get rid of "lip pulling" or stretching of fish when taking pictures (AOTY and DOTY)
3. Have prize kayak(s) go to AOTY and DOTY winners, not be raffled off (AOTY and DOTY)
4. Have DOTY use "best of 10" format like AOTY (DOTY)
5. Create Junior AOTY (AOTY...DOTY too??)
6. Eliminate Sail division? No entries last year...only raydon has posted entries in it this year...(AOTY)

JUNIOR DIVISION!!!!!!!!!!


That should get some ideas flowing...

 

 

Sincerely,

Jim

JUNIOR DIVISION!!!!!!!!!!

Junior AOTY and DOTY right Kris?

 

 

Sincerely,

Jim

ps...all great ideas and input guys...post up anything else you think of here and then we can sift through and pick out ideas/suggestions and go from there? Thanks again!