2015 AOTY/DOTY suggestions

If we want a comp that requires no skill we can get rid of the rules.  If DOTY has any meaning to it then it is, in my opinion, a skill based comp.

That being said:
No bait, no chumming.  If you stringer your fish on the gun rather than on your waist until you get back to the kayak that is acceptable.  If you stringer them on a gun, ie. to drop fish to the bottom as bait, that would be unacceptable.  I have heard of a diver shooting fish for a NCKA comp off a chum bag and then entering it on DOTY.  I can't prove it, but I believe it.  How should we change the rules to eliminate cheating?

I like the top ten because of the 17 species, 9 of them are rare in NorCal and only 1, abalone, is not available in Cencal.  Top ten would allow a NorCal guy to compete without breaking the bank travelling 500 miles every weekend.

I like the raffle. I think it keeps things more honest.  Give smaller prizes for rankings and sell raffle tickets for big items.  This is a charity after all, tickets would raise more money for those in need.

Measurements should remain closed mouth the same way a warden would measure your fish to see if it were legal.  Lip pulling must stop.  If the letter of the law doesn't exclude lip pulling, neither does it exclude slicing a spiral around a fish and stretching it as far as you can.  How many ways can we come up with to get around the rules?  Let's get real.

I would like to separate gopher, china, and B&Y.  I would like to get rid of greenling and perch because I don't like to kill them when I don't want to eat them.  I would say get rid of MFE because my wife won't cook them, but Jim will have a cow.  This is another good reason to try a top ten format.

If we want a comp that requires no skill we can get rid of the rules.  If DOTY has any meaning to it then it is, in my opinion, a skill based comp.

That being said:
No bait, no chumming.  If you stringer your fish on the gun rather than on your waist until you get back to the kayak that is acceptable.  If you stringer them on a gun, ie. to drop fish to the bottom as bait, that would be unacceptable.  I have heard of a diver shooting fish for a NCKA comp off a chum bag and then entering it on DOTY.  I can't prove it, but I believe it.  How should we change the rules to eliminate cheating?

I like the top ten because of the 17 species, 9 of them are rare in NorCal and only 1, abalone, is not available in Cencal.  Top ten would allow a NorCal guy to compete without breaking the bank travelling 500 miles every weekend.

I like the raffle. I think it keeps things more honest.  Give smaller prizes for rankings and sell raffle tickets for big items.  This is a charity after all, tickets would raise more money for those in need.

Measurements should remain closed mouth the same way a warden would measure your fish to see if it were legal.  Lip pulling must stop.  If the letter of the law doesn't exclude lip pulling, neither does it exclude slicing a spiral around a fish and stretching it as far as you can.  How many ways can we come up with to get around the rules?  Let's get real.

I would like to separate gopher, china, and B&Y.  I would like to get rid of greenling and perch because I don't like to kill them when I don't want to eat them.  I would say get rid of MFE because my wife won't cook them, but Jim will have a cow.  This is another good reason to try a top ten format.

Rob, I think we'll have to end up voting or getting more feedback on most of these issues but here are my opinions on your opinions...

Chumming/baitbags: I agree with you. Honor system and asking individual if they cheated is the only way I can think of to handle any controversy....and then if it turns out they did, public shaming and ridicule. 

Top ten: You and I have had this conversation before and you know where I stand...most guys I have talked to also like the challenge of trying to get all the different species, and I would bet that some of the harder ones to get have been some of the most memorable ones for many competitors...

I don't think anyone needs to travel 500 miles every weekend...but yes, if you want to get all the species you will have to travel and explore....that's part of the idea and part of the fun IMO...

Not sure which 9 you think are rare in "NorCal" compared to "CenCal"....I can see that sheep, olive, kelpy, copper, monkey are primarily cencal fish...not counting wsb since no one has ever entered one that was approved....

This year has proven to all of us that Halibut can be taken by kayak divers north of the Golden Gate if you're willing to put in time and effort in certain areas...and FWIW, I've seen reports of monkeys being taken as far north as Humboldt and the biggest DOTY kelpy came from Sonoma County and I have seen video of them in Mendo as well...

Here's an example of why I am opposed to top ten...

If a diver who preferred diving in "NorCal" wanted to get good top ten entries he could shoot a cab, greenling, Ling, perch, grassy, black, blue, bny/china, verm and pop an ab....for the most part those are species he knows how to target and hunt and get...he could get them all from diving areas that he knows well and just upgrade those species throughout the year without pushing his limits to explore new areas and target new species....

Same with a diver who preferred diving in "CenCal"...could shoot a monkey, perch, kelpy, cab, Ling, olive, grassy, blue, bny and greenling...

I have dove in "NorCal" (all new to me areas in Humboldt, Mendo, Sonoma and Marin) 9 times so far this year looking for big abalone, blacks, verms, halibut and Lings...have found the abs and butts but none of the rest...yet... ...

That's a lot of driving for a guy who lives in Southern Santa Cruz county, but I know that's part of the game and I do it because I want to push myself and explore new waters...and DOTY has been a huge factor in my desire to do so.

Raffle: Seems like most AOTY guys want the Hobie yak as the prize for the winner...and some DOTY guys want a yak for the winner as well...I can see if I can get a yak from JK for DOTY but there really are no guarantees...how do you think DOTY guys would feel if AOTY winner had a prize yak and if DOTY guys didn't (like the past two years) or just had a chance at a raffle? Not sure....

Measurements: I agree with you. Keep mouth closed, and reword rules to eliminate lip pulling etc.

Gopher/bny/china: I'de be fine with that...I think fuzz and Rick and I grouped them as one category initially since they are similar in length...

Perch/Greenling/MFE: As much as I don't like perch and greenling (and have actually only shot a handfull of mfes this year) I think these are species that some divers do like hunting and especially for newer divers who may be working on hunting in shallow it would be a bummer to take them out...

Thanks again for all your help and input Rob.

 

 

Sincerely,

Jim

Has the new rule to raffle the kayak increased the number of participants this year?
In my first couple of years I believed that AOTY was mostly a donation since there was not a chance of me winning anything, this year was different, at the beginning I wanted to participate then when I found out that the money was going to PIFW that made me feel good, after that I heard that all I needed to do was submit a couple of fish to increased my chances to get a new kayak I said SWEET.
I think that AOTY raffle at least will increase the number of people attending the ceremonies, I went last year for the second time and just like the previous year most of the people attending were wining 1 thing or another, I think there should be more anglers going to celebrate and have fun.

I like the format but then again I don't know any other...

These are the numbers I came up with by year. I don't know why 2012 has so many compared to the other years. I guess when Jim won in 2012 a lot of people gave up. I don't think 88 is really an increase based on the total membership increase we have had. The early years the club was a lot smaller and I bet the percentage of participants was much higher than today. A lot of the divers overlap the fisherman. Plus it's only one entry fee.
 
2014-88 fish  dive-34
2013-61 fish  dive-23
2012-204 fish  dive-16
2011-66
2010-63
2009-47
2008-36
2007-27

I plan on entering every year no matter what changes are made.
my first couple of years were getting gear now is having fun with you guys. if it helps PIFW even better.
I will support PIFW any way I can.

after that I heard that all I needed to do was submit a couple of fish to increased my chances to get a new kayak I said SWEET.

man that's disappointing

 
Playing for 365 days, every day, all the planning, all the sacrifices, momentary triumphs, all of the failures, months with no upgrades.
And then when I failed, severe injuries & hospitalized for weeks, I was back at it the very next year.  So "all I needed"
was to spend years OTW, thousands of hours,  thousands of dollars, to get better at kayakfishing to win AOTY one year.

If my one raffle ticket gets pulled for the kayak I'll be giving it to the person who wins AOTY this year. Respect the ones who are trying their hardest.

But everyone deserves to win Jim because they paid $40. 

Rob, we can't go back in time. Hopefully next year some changes will be made & until then all we can do as individuals is what we feel is the right thing to do.

BigJim, there are so many kayaks & gear donated for the single day tourneys I'm hoping the kayak & other gear manufacturers will be able to provide some prizes for both AOTY & DOTY in 2015. If one tourney has a higher number of participants then let that be the guide to balance the percentage of prizes between the two.

I guess when Jim won in 2012 a lot of people gave up.

sounds like it's pretty clear who we can blame for the decreased number of participants.  Everyone blame Salty!!

These are the numbers I came up with by year. I don't know why 2012 has so many compared to the other years. I guess when Jim won in 2012 a lot of people gave up. I don't think 88 is really an increase based on the total membership increase we have had. The early years the club was a lot smaller and I bet the percentage of participants was much higher than today. A lot of the divers overlap the fisherman. Plus it's only one entry fee.
 
2014-88 fish  dive-34
2013-61 fish  dive-23
2012-204 fish  dive-16
2011-66
2010-63
2009-47
2008-36
2007-27

Cool numbers Rob!!!

If I remember right, in 2012 there was a lot of focus made on paying AOTY entry fee to support NCKA (server fees etc) and I would bet that is why there was such a spike in paying entrants...

However...if I remember correctly...there was also a lot of drama and bickering that year and that may be why the number of people who paid plummeted from 204 to 61 in 2013...the lowest number of people who had paid since 2009...

Excluding the abnormality of 2012, 2014 has the highest number of people participating ever in the history of AOTY....I think that's pretty cool!

What I would REALLY like to see is the number of fish entries for each year...I think that would give us a better idea of the pattern of actual participation , rather than just number of people who paid...

This year we have over 740 seperate species entered between AOTY and DOTY...that seems like pretty good participation to me, but have no clue how that stacks up to prior years...

Rob, we can't go back in time. Hopefully next year some changes will be made & until then all we can do as individuals is what we feel is the right thing to do.

BigJim, there are so many kayaks & gear donated for the single day tourneys I'm hoping the kayak & other gear manufacturers will be able to provide some prizes for both AOTY & DOTY in 2015. If one tourney has a higher number of participants then let that be the guide to balance the percentage of prizes between the two.

I hear what you are saying Jim and respect where you are coming from 100%.

I think we'll post a poll soon to see what the majority of folks want to do with the prize Hobie yak in 2015(assuming they agree to donate another one next year).

From reading all the responses on this thread I imagine that the consensus will be to go back to having the prize yak go to the winner.

Since AOTY has more than double the participants of DOTY it only makes sense IMO that the first donated yak would go to AOTY winner...

As I mentioned before, I think I will ask if JK is willing to donate a new yak to 2015 DOTY winner...

OR, if someone out there wants to contact a kayak shop or company and ask for a donated prize yak please do so!! 

In terms of what that will do particiaption numbers, level of competition etc...I have no clue...

Also...I should make it clear that everything I am writing is just my thoughts and I have not discussed any of this with the other AOTY/DOTY committe members...as you can see in this thread Rob102 (the other DOTY committe member) and I have very different opinions on some topics.

I just personally want to get input from the folks who play AOTY/DOTY and do my best to try to make the game match up with what they want to see...an open thread like this may not have been the best approach, but it was the easiest and fastest way to get a lot of input so I did it.

 

 

Sincerely,

Jim
 

Looks like its better to kill fish for a competition sake, than there will be no question about size. This was my (and a few others) reason for not participating in 2014.
Just an FYI,
After bailing on AOTY, I received a few comments about not supporting NCKA, even though I donated over 20 items to PIF.
Hope this isn't the trend going forward as it is very obvious that I can't enter knowing that I might do more harm to a fishery I'm trying to preserve.

I'm in agreement with Eric.  And screw the drama... seems like it was a minority that complained all the time about that crap.  Make it free, make it no prizes, and make it fun again.  If it's not going to be fun, I'm not doing it.

Looks like its better to kill fish for a competition sake, than there will be no question about size. This was my (and a few others) reason for not participating in 2014.
Just an FYI,
After bailing on AOTY, I received a few comments about not supporting NCKA, even though I donated over 20 items to PIF.
Hope this isn't the trend going forward as it is very obvious that I can't enter knowing that I might do more harm to a fishery I'm trying to preserve.

I'm in agreement with Eric.  And screw the drama... seems like it was a minority that complained all the time about that crap.  Make it free, make it no prizes, and make it fun again.  If it's not going to be fun, I'm not doing it.

Just curious Al...is there something about this years AOTY that has prevented you from signing up and playing?

I've been having a ton of fun playing both AOTY and DOTY and so have most folks I've asked....

 

Sincerely,

Jim

Quote from: yakhopper on August 30, 2014, 09:51:58 AM

    Looks like its better to kill fish for a competition sake, than there will be no question about size. This was my (and a few others) reason for not participating in 2014.

It's this.  And the unwillingness to make corrections to mistakes, vs. straight out disqualification.  It' just doesn't sit right with me.  And it's not like I was ever called out for a bad picture that I've posted for AOTY ever before.

Quote from: yakhopper on August 30, 2014, 09:51:58 AM

    Looks like its better to kill fish for a competition sake, than there will be no question about size. This was my (and a few others) reason for not participating in 2014.

It's this.  And the unwillingness to make corrections to mistakes, vs. straight out disqualification.  It' just doesn't sit right with me.  And it's not like I was ever called out for a bad picture that I've posted for AOTY ever before.

Fair enough. 

The DQing of entries vs correction to length for poor pics is an issue that I think has actually got rid of a LOT of arguing/bickering/drama, and has increased the overall quality of pics submiited.

I really don't know what previous pics of yours from 2012 and before were issues so won't comment on those...but it looks like a lot of your entries were on fish that you took home to eat so not sure how Eric's CPR issue comes into play for those?

http://aoty.norcalkayakanglers.com/leaderboard/list_by_angler/94

 

Sincerely,

Jim

I'd like to reduce the list back down to 10 species and re-institute the "mouth ajar" rule.   

-Allen