Ideal kayak rod for big fish

I know the question of what an ideal kayak fishing rod has been asked many times.  But I have a slightly different bent on it.

What would your ideal kayak rod look like for big fish, the kind that you need to apply immediate breaking power or you lose them to the rocks?

I believe with the typical 7' rod, that you can't set more than ~10# of drag before you just become unstable on a rod.

When we did the salmon sharks, we started out with big drag on big rods and had to change up pretty quickly (lower the drag) because it was just too unstable.  By the end of the fight, some of use resorted to resting the rod on our feet, putting the reel in low gear, and grunting it out.  The tackle and tactic worked, but I feel the gear was just too big, and certainly unwieldy for a full day of fishing.

Recently in Hawaii, I tangled with some unstoppable Uluas.  30# outfit with a 7' rod.  Again, the kayak became unstable at higher drags.  I had an Avet SX set to 10# at strike.  Went to sunset to try to stop the fish and things got wonky.  I think 7' is just too long for this sort of fishing.

I'm actually thinking a shorter rod, say 5' would work better.  Similar to the shorter standup rods you see, but with a longer rear butt jammed under your armpit instead of a shorter butt into your hip or a gimbal.  Point the rod forward and down and grind away.  I'd be happy if I could get the drag up to 14-15#, so that would mean a 50# outfit would be about right.  Fast action, but not too fast.  I don't want it to be jerky, and I don't want it to snap back too fast if I break off, lest I fall out the back of the yak.

Thoughts?

-Allen

i dont speak french Allen.......can you translate? 

i dont speak french Allen.......can you translate? 

What gear do I need to reliably reel in really big fish from my kayak?  I'm not talking your typical NoCal big fish either.

-Allen

i guess my experience does not qualify to answer such a question.= I'm just a typical NorCalBoy.

yeah I think you are on to it with a shoter rod (like the 5 ft range) I am guessing the lever action of a longer rod would make for a harder fight and more unstable. I have no clue what actual rod that is but it seems like some of the tuna sticks may do it. Also roller guides? with all that pressure/friction would that help? I'd guess you'd just want flex in the tip. Maybe 1st foot of a 5 foot rod...just thinking out loud since I'd love to have that problem!

bent butt ?

Yeah, I was thinking about roller stripper and roller tip.

Not sure what bent butt buys me.  Seems like it would make the whole outfit a bit unwieldy.

-Allen

With a possible AK trip on the horizon I have been rolling around the same idea....
I think one of the major determiners would be if the fish will be fought mostly vertical (Halibut, the real kind) or are you talking about big water pelagic species (marlin and such). I have never caught a big 'but from a yak but have taken a few from PB and a 5'6" - 6'6" rod is normal. When wrestling over sized sturgeon out of the Columbia (7-10 foot) we use a long rod for more control.
Again all from a PB

My thought would be that a short rod would be best for the largest fish but a 6'6"-7' rod would be idea for more mid sized fish  

I think you'd be less stable with a 5' extra-fast action rod and 10+lbs of drag...compared to the same drag pressure on a longer slow-action rod. Because with the short stiff rod, there's nothing to absorb a quick burst of speed (or violent headshakes) by the fish, except the reel's drag...and if you crank up the pressure to 12-14lbs, it seems more likely to pull you over the side or become unstable. Wait, maybe I misunderstood the question--what do I win?  

With a possible AK trip on the horizon I have been rolling around the same idea....
I think one of the major determiners would be if the fish will be fought mostly vertical (Halibut, the real kind) or are you talking about big water pelagic species (marlin and such). I have never caught a big 'but from a yak but have taken a few from PB and a 5'6" - 6'6" rod is normal. When wrestling over sized sturgeon out of the Columbia (7-10 foot) we use a long rod for more control.
Again all from a PB

My thought would be that a short rod would be best for the largest fish but a 6'6"-7' rod would be idea for more mid sized fish  

I'm not so worried about halibut.  You can bring a big one in on a reasonable rod without worry of it rocking you and busting off.

Marlin are another extreme.  The fight is mostly on top and higher drag won't buy you much.  You're limited by the drag of the kayak.  You can set your drag to 15# but the kayak is going to be moving at like 7#.

So I'm thinking fishing over reefs for things like Giant Trevally, Yellowtail, Cubera Snapper, etc.  These are fish that you must stop of they will break you off.  For some of the larger ones, I'm not sure 15# is enough drag.  I'm also think of fish like larger tuna, that if you can't put pressure on them, you're not getting them in.  There are still a class of fish that I think are close to impossible for the kayak fisherman to get in.  A 200# tuna comes to mind.

-Allen

I think you'd be less stable with a 5' extra-fast action rod and 10+lbs of drag...compared to the same drag pressure on a longer slow-action rod. Because with the short stiff rod, there's nothing to absorb a quick burst of speed (or violent headshakes) by the fish, except the reel's drag...and if you crank up the pressure to 12-14lbs, it seems more likely to pull you over the side or become unstable. Wait, maybe I misunderstood the question--what do I win?  

That's why I said fast action, but not too fast.

I think the most stable point for a line to enter the water going straight down would be right next to me at my hip.  A 7 foot rod is far from that.  A 5 foot rod is close.   Hmmm ... a 4 foot rod is even closer.

A smaller rod is easy for me to manipulate.  I can drop the tip and point it straight down if needed and let the drag handle the run.  Again, pointing straight down next to my hip.

-Allen

In the even that you hook a 200# tuna on your yak you will be lucky to wear the fish to exhaustion. If it were to die and dead weight would it be possible to get that fish to the surface?

As far as halibut goes the speed and power is not there but a AK class 'but in the 200 pound range presents a lot of challenges...
How do you subdue said fish?

Allen,
The main concern I would have with the shorter rod is what happens when the fish is down and crosses from right side of yak to the left. This situation may be difficult as the fish would now be putting a lot of torque downward on the right side and you would have no way to rectify it. Maybe I'm missing something but this is why I like a little longer rod.
The idea of the longer butt has always worked for me - this will make for a more comfortable extended fight.
Good luck finding what works best for your needs.

See Ya Soon,
Eric / Yakhopper

I don't think the rod/reel are the limiting factor here. I think the real question is "How much drag can I use on a kayak?" In your first post you don't mention that the rod/reel are what got squirley with the salmon sharks, it was your yak.

Assuming your technique for fighting the fish from a yak is strong (based on what I've seen of your fishing exploits, I can't imagine you're not doing it as well as can be done), maybe you can really only run 10lbs of drag on a Scupper Pro, while you might be more comfortable with 15 lbs of drag if you were sitting on an X-Factor.

Maybe with a change in the type of rod you could get a bit more drag, but the stability of your yak is what is going to ultimately determine your max drag setting.

Allen,
The main concern I would have with the shorter rod is what happens when the fish is down and crosses from right side of yak to the left. This situation may be difficult as the fish would now be putting a lot of torque downward on the right side and you would have no way to rectify it. Maybe I'm missing something but this is why I like a little longer rod.

I rarely switch sides when fighting a fish, even if it goes under and across.  The kayak will turn.

-Allen