Official GWS Thread

I did the fancy BB stuff and put my questions with Dan's answers right after... for you speed readers... 

Wow. sounds like a pretty good prey hit. no damage to your back or anything tho?

No, but I couldn't lift my arms the next day after three really quick re entry's, trying to fix my seat the last two times.

So Dan, do you feel that the stop-and-go retrieve works the best?  . sounds like you paused
with maybe a couple twitches to fool him?

Yes Yes

Also, I've seen the pics posted by fishhunter and it looks like some of those teeth marks went right through the hull.
Is that accurate? Do you think you would have sunk if you were 3 or 4 miles off shore?

Yes, there was one hole right in the bottom of the V and three slices, mostly above the water line. No, maybe, when I got back to shore there was only maybe a couple gallons of water in there.

Dan, hope I got that one right thanks!

the other option is a voice recording and somebody could make an mp3 file. or a video. How about come to lunch with me and Mooch and Bill (I'll pay for yours since you "bought" me mine and we'll make a video).

Let's do it!

Mooch, I have a few pages written down on paper, when and if I finish I'll give it to you to post, I type slooooow. . I bring the Diet Coke for you..Bring me a beer! Dan

Dan, it would be an honor 

What's your beer of choice?

Z, I think they hit some things and decide they are not blubbery enough to be worth the danger/effort of eating.

a sea otter has no blubber, not like the corn dog that is an elephant seal!

So from the bottom, they see a silhouette, they nail it, and in the bite they can tell "chewy", or "crunchy".

"crunchy" gets left for the seagulls and the shark goes in search of "chewy" (a nice blubber encased seal).

Good thing our kayaks are "crunchy".

J

I see what you're saying J but I don't agree that because of they size of the prey (penguins and otters). Some of the sharks that are hitting these small animals and leaving them for dead are big sharks. Like we've heard many times and you've said yourself, the GWS will take it's time to check out the prey well before attack; they won't just cold cock anything. If they made the mistake once I'm sure they could look up and recognize that what's up there is a small penguin/otter and not a good food source.

So why do they continue to do this? Is it curiosity, play, or  territorial? I don't know.. but I don't buy they go around chomping on anything that moves and then figure out that they are crunchy and spit them out. I've heard they do make exploratory bites and that their mouths are one of the best ways they can "feel" an object but if they do this it's slow with soft bites and not a balls to the wall Mary Lou Retton aerial back flip. KNow what I mean?

Z

Z, I think they hit some things and decide they are not blubbery enough to be worth the danger/effort of eating.

a sea otter has no blubber, not like the corn dog that is an elephant seal!

So from the bottom, they see a silhouette, they nail it, and in the bite they can tell "chewy", or "crunchy".

"crunchy" gets left for the seagulls and the shark goes in search of "chewy" (a nice blubber encased seal).

Good thing our kayaks are "crunchy".

J

I see what you're saying J but I don't agree that because of they size of the prey (penguins and otters). Some of the sharks that are hitting these small animals and leaving them for dead are big sharks. Like we've heard many times and you've said yourself, the GWS will take it's time to check out the prey well before attack; they won't just cold cock anything. If they made the mistake once I'm sure they could look up and recognize that what's up there is a small penguin/otter and not a good food source.

So why do they continue to do this? Is it curiosity, play, or  territorial? I don't know.. but I don't buy they go around chomping on anything that moves and then figure out that they are crunchy and spit them out. I've heard they do make exploratory bites and that their mouths are one of the best ways they can "feel" an object but if they do this it's slow with soft bites and not a balls to the wall Mary Lou Retton aerial back flip. KNow what I mean?

Z

Z, they hit plywood cutouts of seals and small ones at that. So I don't think they always know what they are hitting even if they stalk it carefully.

they don't come back for the cutout of the crunchy plywood seal do they?

so no, I don't know what you mean,  .

J

J - After the same shark has hit the towed seal cut out more than once the shark figures out that it is fake and doesn't do it again. There is definitely some recognition and intelligence there.

I have been thinking about this for a couple of days now and since I have yet to see it come up here goes:

We know sharks can pickup very small electrical fields. Does anyone know if Dan had any batteries/battery pack on his kayak? More importantly if he did was it up in the front of his kayak where most of us put them? Might be something to think about anyway given the hard to define nature of the interaction between Dan/Dans kayak and the GWS. Also does anyone have the ability to measure the electric fields being put out by a fully rigged and operational kayak? Remember the first GWS in captivity eventually had to be released because every time it came upon a certain spot in the tank it would slam into it. After the shark was released and the tank drained a low electric field was found in that exact spot, upon further investigation there was a small amount of rust on the structural rebar inside the concrete.

Jeff

J - After the same shark has hit the towed seal cut out more than once the shark figures out that it is fake and doesn't do it again. There is definitely some recognition and intelligence there.

I have been thinking about this for a couple of days now and since I have yet to see it come up here goes:

We know sharks can pickup very small electrical fields. Does anyone know if Dan had any batteries/battery pack on his kayak? More importantly if he did was it up in the front of his kayak where most of us put them? Might be something to think about anyway given the hard to define nature of the interaction between Dan/Dans kayak and the GWS. Also does anyone have the ability to measure the electric fields being put out by a fully rigged and operational kayak? Remember the first GWS in captivity eventually had to be released because every time it came upon a certain spot in the tank it would slam into it. After the shark was released and the tank drained a low electric field was found in that exact spot, upon further investigation there was a small amount of rust on the structural rebar inside the concrete.

Jeff

Jeff, If what you are saying is correct than it would behove us to watch where we place our electronics on our kayaks, Especially the battery placement for our FF,GPS, Etc. If I remember correctly Dan placed his in the forward hatch.

J - After the same shark has hit the towed seal cut out more than once the shark figures out that it is fake and doesn't do it again. There is definitely some recognition and intelligence there.

I have been thinking about this for a couple of days now and since I have yet to see it come up here goes:

We know sharks can pickup very small electrical fields. Does anyone know if Dan had any batteries/battery pack on his kayak? More importantly if he did was it up in the front of his kayak where most of us put them? Might be something to think about anyway given the hard to define nature of the interaction between Dan/Dans kayak and the GWS. Also does anyone have the ability to measure the electric fields being put out by a fully rigged and operational kayak? Remember the first GWS in captivity eventually had to be released because every time it came upon a certain spot in the tank it would slam into it. After the shark was released and the tank drained a low electric field was found in that exact spot, upon further investigation there was a small amount of rust on the structural rebar inside the concrete.

Jeff

Jeff, If what you are saying is correct than it would behove us to watch where we place our electronics on our kayaks, Especially the battery placement for our FF,GPS, Etc. If I remember correctly Dan placed his in the forward hatch.

jeff, I saw that quote about the sharks eventually wising up on the cut-outs, but they said "most" sharks figure it out after a "few hits", so there might be that one stubborn or hungry one out there that doesn't wise, up, but that's a nit. also, do they forget and hit when they are hungry again? who knows?

I like your comment about the battery, that could certainly be why the shark kept nibbling, who knows. On the other hand, anything that kept it munching on the kayak while Dan was swimming around might be a good thing as it seems to never even noticed him.

yeah, red color, attractor fins and electrical field trickery; maybe Dan had quite the lure going there?

I like the idea of a shark shield wired to the FF battery, tho, with a big red 'do not press' button in the cockpit.

J

Z, they hit plywood cutouts of seals and small ones at that. So I don't think they always know what they are hitting even if they stalk it carefully.

they don't come back for the cutout of the crunchy plywood seal do they?

so no, I don't know what you mean,  .
J

I think we can agree that a small seal (the plywood cutout size) and an otter or penguin are quite different in size. A small seal would still range in the 5-7 foot range while a penguin is barely a foot along and only the largest otters top out at 4. Also, the small seal has got a good sized girth. They look like a fatty morsel no doubt. The otter is long and slim and a penguin is along the lines of a fly compared to a GWS. Why would they continue to go after them if they had hit these small animals before? Are you suggesting that the reason they have stuck around for millions of years is because they are indiscriminate attackers?

On one side I totally agree with you J, sharks do "mouth" their prey to figure what they've got on their hands and spit out a bony unfit prey. But I just can't accept that they would continue to hit such small targets (penguins and otters) over and over and be explained as mistakes.

Z

Jeff, If what you are saying is correct than it would behove us to watch where we place our electronics on our kayaks, Especially the battery placement for our FF,GPS, Etc. If I remember correctly Dan placed his in the forward hatch.

Frank, I don't think that you really could place the batteries anywhere the shark couldn't detect it. But maybe you mean put it on the tip of the bow as opposed to right underneath you? That way the attack would be concentrated as far away from you as possible.

Z

Yeah, but there would be an electrical field anywhere the cable is running, not just at the battery.  I just wonder how much electrical signal could be detected through insulated cable and plastic boat.  We're all speculating about this, but it certainly seems plausible that some milli or micro amp electric field could be detected outside the yak.

I think this one needs to go to MythBusters!  Seriously...

EK

.. if I recall from other research the sharks don't use the electrical field detectors (ampullae of lorenzini) to necessarily stalk their prey, but they do definitely rely on them at the final moment when they roll their eyes back and are sightless. The elecrical field then lets them know where to bite. In baited situations sharks will often move in toward a bait, but then end up biting the nearby swimstep or transom of the research vessel due to this.
  This kayak FF electrical theory is an interesting one.  I guess we'd need to put two identical yaks in the water, one with operating electronics and one without. This would probably prove as much as the "ham or side of ribs" experiment, but it would be interesting!

I think this one needs to go to MythBusters!  Seriously...

I second that one!

Z

Jeff, If what you are saying is correct than it would behove us to watch where we place our electronics on our kayaks, Especially the battery placement for our FF,GPS, Etc. If I remember correctly Dan placed his in the forward hatch.

Zackly Z, Just bought the Trident and will mount everything forward of the cockpit. So does the output of the current matter? In other words Radio battery vs. FF 12V? I wonder?

Frank, I don't think that you really could place the batteries anywhere the shark couldn't detect it. But maybe you mean put it on the tip of the bow as opposed to right underneath you? That way the attack would be concentrated as far away from you as possible.

Z

Like we've heard many times and you've said yourself, the GWS will take it's time to check out the prey well before attack; they won't just cold cock anything. If they made the mistake once I'm sure they could look up and recognize that what's up there is a small penguin/otter and not a good food source.

Z

Z. pay attention. (did your mom ever express exasperation bringing you up?  ).

they won't cold-cock each other. that does not go for the penguins. or otters. or kayaks. or ab divers. or surfers.

I do think they will take their time stalking, but to avoid detection they may stay further away than they need to for perfect identification.

I think in a feeding mood they'll hit a lot of stuff. incuding penguins, otters, plywood cutouts, kayaks, divers, surfers, etc.

J

Z, they hit plywood cutouts of seals and small ones at that. So I don't think they always know what they are hitting even if they stalk it carefully.

they don't come back for the cutout of the crunchy plywood seal do they?

so no, I don't know what you mean,  .
J

I think we can agree that a small seal (the plywood cutout size) and an otter or penguin are quite different in size. A small seal would still range in the 5-7 foot range while a penguin is barely a foot along and only the largest otters top out at 4. Also, the small seal has got a good sized girth. They look like a fatty morsel no doubt. The otter is long and slim and a penguin is along the lines of a fly compared to a GWS. Why would they continue to go after them if they had hit these small animals before? Are you suggesting that the reason they have stuck around for millions of years is because they are indiscriminate attackers?

On one side I totally agree with you J, sharks do "mouth" their prey to figure what they've got on their hands and spit out a bony unfit prey. But I just can't accept that they would continue to hit such small targets (penguins and otters) over and over and be explained as mistakes.

Z

Z, are you saying that the 12 foot shark is being territorial with the 4 foot otter? hello! hello? hello!? 

I've seen 5 foot otters. don't know about the penguins, btw, you have a link or something? right now this is hearsay.

It's prey-driven, imo. and then not worth eating after the hit 'n' spit. it's not territorial.

territorial involves displays and warnings before the hit. prey is hit without warning.

J