I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

[...........

Whatever is the opposite of the place that Swiftboat Veterans, death panels, Obama is a Muslim, etc. came from.
[/quote]

You know if the press would ever report something honestly and completely..There are or where "death panels" in a couple of places in the house bill. One was before you could get any medication that was prescribed by a doctor you have to go before a panel who approves that prescription..or not.

Second was what the press talked about was a doctor was required by law to have a living will conference with eveyone of thier paitents upon them reaching the age of 62. Now the catch here is that no doctor is going to hold such a confernece for two resons. one is that they will be so busy with patients that htey wont have the time as many doctors will retire in goverment medicene happens and they healthcare system will be flooded with those uninsured. Two it goes completely against a doctors personality, they are not sales type of people and terrible businessmen.

So what happens and what Palin was saying is that the goverment is going to have to hire people to do these "living wills" sessions...and how much do you want to bet that they will all be insurnace salesmen types being paid on commission? 

Just another way to kill off the old folks who are a drain on society.

And why cant those 45,000 americans walk into the ER for free treatment?

Ocean, to start, ER care is far from free. If you do not have a negotiated rate (hospitals negotiate rates with each insurance co) you will typically be billed 2-3 times negotiated rates. Just because ER's cannot turn you away doesn't mean they don't don't work hard at collecting the debt. Also, you can't go to an ER for medical supplies (like insulin), or out patient care treatments (like chemo). 

Well golly gee, ...

The quality of your arguments have gone from misinformed to childish. Take a breathe.

M2 just provided you with food for thought. Spain has a substantial problem with with illegal immigrants. It is the easiest approach to Europe for people wanting to leave North Africa. At least that was the case a couple years ago, I haven't been following recently.

Ben

Yet 45,000 free American citizens die each year from a lack of health care.

Which is a point of pride I’m sure.

Nice. 

I'm done with you.

It's a relevant point tho'. You say access to health care is not a "right" but should be based on the ability to pay same as any other commodity. If so, people will die because they cannot afford health care. I'm not saying you'd be proud of that, but you have to at least accept it happens currently and, if the system were to be purely based upon ability to pay and all free taxpayer sponsered programs abolished, it would happen a lot more.

You still haven't answered my question about what happens to those who will never be able to afford healthcare under such a system; orphans, those unable to work through mental and physical disability, etc. They should just be left out in the street?

 

No, it isn't a valid point.  It is an ad hominem attack, flatly stating that I am proud of the deaths of 45,000 people.  I do not intend to respond or to feed a guy that has been trolling me for several pages of this thread.

And why cant those 45,000 americans walk into the ER for free treatment?

Ocean, to start, ER care is far from free. If you do not have a negotiated rate (hospitals negotiate rates with each insurance co) you will typically be billed 2-3 times negotiated rates. Just because ER's cannot turn you away doesn't mean they don't don't work hard at collecting the debt. Also, you can't go to an ER for medical supplies (like insulin), or out patient care treatments (like chemo). 

Well golly gee, ...

.

The quality of your arguments have gone from misinformed to childish. Take a breathe.

M2 just provided you with food for thought. Spain has a substantial problem with with illegal immigrants. It is the easiest approach to Europe for people wanting to leave North Africa. At least that was the case a couple years ago, I haven't been following recently.

Ben

Oh come on, how is the hospital going to collect from someone who uses a PO box as an address? or who gives a phoney address???? ER is free to lots and lots and lots of people and is the reason why you are paying so much for hospital care.

I kind of think having to get across an ocean limits the number of people flooding Spains ERs. Here the Mexican walk or dirve across a thousand mile border, big difference, major huge problem for our ERs

I've said elsewhere in the thread that regulation is the answer when the free market breaks down.

When I said I love libertarians I wasn't being sarcastic. Libertarianism represents a worthy ideal. For what it's worth, Ron Paul's was the only campaign I contributed to during the last election. I knew he didn't have a chance, but he brought arguments to the table the other parties wouldn't consider ("we don't need 500,000 soldiers overseas"). I thought if enough people kept him in the race long enough the quality of the debate might improve. Oh well <g>.

The problem with libertarians is their inability to deal with the consequences of holding on to free market/no government ideals in the face of real world circumstance. So, for example, when you ask Paul what he would do after abolishing the IRS things get really, really vague. Crash, you want to slice and dice statistics when, no matter how you slice and dice things, the numbers of people suffering/dieing, due directly the failure of our health care markets, is unacceptable. And, no, I don't think suing is an adequate source of recourse. Several have tried and died as it drug on, no pun intended.

I'm not certain, as you've not said (I don't think -- this thread is getting lengthy) what you actually object to in the health care reform as the president has outlined it. For me these represent it's essence:

1) No exclusion for pre-existing conditions
2) All must buy health insurance (or else #1 doesn't work)
3) A public option as an alternative to private insurance.

Isn't that worthy regulation? It works in the rest of the industrialized world, why do you, and so many others, insist that it can't work here?

The "I'm sure the government will screw it up" argument just doesn't work for me. The corporations we deal with everyday have budgets the size of small countries and I've found it easier to work with the IRS than my cell phone company with a billing problem. Social Security is administered for a cost of 2-3%, so we can't argue waste when health insurance co's spend many multiples of that.  And again, even France, famous for it's obstinate bureaucrats, has made it work at a GDP cost about 2/3s of what we are doing now.

What's the problem beyond ideology?

Ben

Yet 45,000 free American citizens die each year from a lack of health care.

Which is a point of pride I’m sure.

Nice. 

I'm done with you.

It's a relevant point tho'. You say access to health care is not a "right" but should be based on the ability to pay same as any other commodity. If so, people will die because they cannot afford health care. I'm not saying you'd be proud of that, but you have to at least accept it happens currently and, if the system were to be purely based upon ability to pay and all free taxpayer sponsered programs abolished, it would happen a lot more.

You still haven't answered my question about what happens to those who will never be able to afford healthcare under such a system; orphans, those unable to work through mental and physical disability, etc. They should just be left out in the street?

 

No, it isn't a valid point.  It is an ad hominem attack, flatly stating that I am proud of the deaths of 45,000 people.  I do not intend to respond or to feed a guy that has been trolling me for several pages of this thread.

I'm not saying you're proud of it.

So do I get any response(s)? To the questions above?

Oh come on, how is the hospital going to collect from someone who uses a PO box as an address? or who gives a phoney address????

So everyone who uses the ER is dishonest? You're saying those 45,000 people should have given a false address so they could get "free" ER treatment? Of course, that doesn't address the fact that the ER doesn't provide on-going care for heart conditions, diabetes, cancer, ...

And, really, I think it's idiotic to suggest this is the way our ERs should be used.

ER is free to lots and lots and lots of people

They may not/cannot pay the bill, but there is a bill, and hospitals work hard at collecting it.

and is the reason why you are paying so much for hospital care.

It's certainly one reason.

I kind of think having to get across an ocean limits the number of people flooding Spains ERs.

"Kind of think" all you want, it's a real problem. Check it out. Google is your friend.

Here the Mexican walk or dirve across a thousand mile border, big difference, major huge problem for our ERs

OK, Ocean, how many? How many Mexicans, living in Mexico, seek out our ERs for free treatment?

Ben

So do I get any response(s)? To the questions above?

Forget it Northern.

Comprehension of any response requires you to first accede the premise that life is entirely fair and everyone gets exactly what they deserve. Beyond all evidence and reason this tenet is central to the philosophy.

50 years of listening to zealots and carnival barkers on AM radio moaning the word “socialist”, with a sneer, voice dripping with condescension, has without rationale poisoned this group to the idea even though socialist programs have, and continue to be very popular here.
 
Just imagine what an obliterated, smoldering crater this country would be right now had Bush’s Social Security privatization scheme been successful.

Volume postings on this thread has passed me by.  I'm sure i missed LOTS, but what's up with bashing patent attorneys and patent litigators??

 

Volume postings on this thread has passed me by.  I'm sure i missed LOTS, but what's up with bashing patent attorneys and patent litigators??

When all else fails, blame the government and attorneys  I think it started as patents affording defacto monopolies (and the effects on health care costs) and the manipulation of them after the fact.

I try not to post links, but, assuming you are in the biz, Martin, you might find it interesting. And, for the interests of the thread, it kind of addresses the business ethics of corp America (cheaper to violate a patent than license, maybe).

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/technology/21patent.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Ben

Yet 45,000 free American citizens die each year from a lack of health care.

Which is a point of pride I’m sure.

Nice. 

I'm done with you.

It's a relevant point tho'. You say access to health care is not a "right" but should be based on the ability to pay same as any other commodity. If so, people will die because they cannot afford health care. I'm not saying you'd be proud of that, but you have to at least accept it happens currently and, if the system were to be purely based upon ability to pay and all free taxpayer sponsered programs abolished, it would happen a lot more.

You still haven't answered my question about what happens to those who will never be able to afford healthcare under such a system; orphans, those unable to work through mental and physical disability, etc. They should just be left out in the street?

 

No, it isn't a valid point.  It is an ad hominem attack, flatly stating that I am proud of the deaths of 45,000 people.  I do not intend to respond or to feed a guy that has been trolling me for several pages of this thread.

I'm not saying you're proud of it.

So do I get any response(s)? To the questions above?

Ya here is a response....Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??
Everyone knows how to take care of their body, how they should and what they should eat to be healthy.
So now answer this question.....When does someone become responsible for their actions in your world?

Oh come on, how is the hospital going to collect from someone who uses a PO box as an address? or who gives a phoney address????

So everyone who uses the ER is dishonest? You're saying those 45,000 people should have given a false address so they could get "free" ER treatment? Of course, that doesn't address the fact that the ER doesn't provide on-going care for heart conditions, diabetes, cancer, ...

And, really, I think it's idiotic to suggest this is the way our ERs should be used.

ER is free to lots and lots and lots of people

They may not/cannot pay the bill, but there is a bill, and hospitals work hard at collecting it.

and is the reason why you are paying so much for hospital care.

It's certainly one reason.

I kind of think having to get across an ocean limits the number of people flooding Spains ERs.

"Kind of think" all you want, it's a real problem. Check it out. Google is your friend.

Here the Mexican walk or dirve across a thousand mile border, big difference, major huge problem for our ERs

OK, Ocean, how many? How many Mexicans, living in Mexico, seek out our ERs for free treatment?

Ben

As i said before i have freinds that are from mexico and not here legally but their kids are us citizens. Using a po box as an address is one way to scam the "system". when the bill collecters start showing up, they just change PO boxes and or post offices. Mexico is a completely different place, there you get what you can anyway you can, its a completely corupt country. If we in the US provide anything for free and its just a matter of scaming the system, that perfectly fine with them as thats how it works in the country they live in.

How many Mexican in the ER..well guess what due to discrimination laws the hospitals are not allowed to count them, thats why all the data on the cost of healthcare is done by counting the farmworkers in the Census.
Now if the hospital where allowed to count the mexicans in their emergecy rooms and that information was made public all hell would break loose, its that big of a problem.

Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??

So, Ocean, in your world view, who judges whether a person is responsible for their poor health and decides they are not deserving of health care? Are we talking about your own version of "death panels"?

Using a po box as an address is one way to scam the "system".

I didn't say it wasn't. What I asked is, are you suggesting, when you say people who died for lack of health care should have used "free" ER services, that 45,000 people a year *should* scam hospitals this way?

all hell would break loose, its that big of a problem.

With all due respect, you have no idea how big the problem is. We can all agree it's an issue. But if you want to blame sick Mexicans coming across the border for our health care expenses you have to do a whole lot better.


Ben

So do I get any response(s)? To the questions above?

Forget it Northern.

Comprehension of any response requires you to first accede the premise that life is entirely fair and everyone gets exactly what they deserve. Beyond all evidence and reason this tenet is central to the philosophy.

50 years of listening to zealots and carnival barkers on AM radio moaning the word “socialist”, with a sneer, voice dripping with condescension, has without rationale poisoned this group to the idea even though socialist programs have, and continue to be very popular here.
 
Just imagine what an obliterated, smoldering crater this country would be right now had Bush’s Social Security privatization scheme been successful.

First we have several huge craters about to happen the first 3 are going to happen in 7 years or so.

1. the bankruptcy of social security

2. the bankruptcy of medicare

3. underfunded private pension plans 45 trillion. Most of this money was lost in Clinton's Dot com bubble....errr scam err completely illegal ponzie scam.

We also have second round of forclosures about to happen that's the "other shoe" the interest only home loans.

Oh and huge huge federal deficits as the goverment is spending money faster then it can be printed. Oh ya get ready for inflation as the fed is monetizing the debt.

Bush asked for congress to come up with a plan to save social security. The privatization was just one of the ideas, but of course the liberals wouldn't allow anything or any idea to pass to stop the disaster that is about to happen.