I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??

So, Ocean, in your world view, who judges whether a person is responsible for their poor health and decides they are not deserving of health care? Are we talking about your own version of "death panels"?

You still wont answer the question, when is someone held responsible for their actions when it comes to their health?

Ya here is a response....Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??
Everyone knows how to take care of their body, how they should and what they should eat to be healthy.
So now answer this question.....When does someone become responsible for their actions in your world?

Let's see.. if I can't afford health insurance and use the emergency room for when I'm sick, where do I go for general checkups and routine preventative care?   Who paid for my visits to the doctor when I was only slightly over weight and the doctor might have enlightened me about my unhealthy lifestyle, prescribed an exercise regiment and refered me to a nutritionist to get some instruction on a healthy diet.  Not everyone knows how to take care of themselves.  Even if they do and are willing, they might see such choices as being out of reach of their budget.  A good nutritionist should be able to offer advice about good nutrition on a tight budget.

Affordable preventative medicine might go a long way towards reducing the overall cost of health care in this country.   But then again, I'm sure we are on the bleeding edge of innovative liposuction and gastric bypass surgery here in the US and  I wouldn't want to stifle that booming medical business.

Using a po box as an address is one way to scam the "system".

I didn't say it wasn't. What I asked is, are you suggesting, when you say people who died for lack of health care should have used "free" ER services, that 45,000 people a year *should* scam hospitals this way?

all hell would break loose, its that big of a problem.

With all due respect, you have no idea how big the problem is. We can all agree it's an issue. But if you want to blame sick Mexicans coming across the border for our health care expenses you have to do a whole lot better.


Ben

What i am saying is if these 45,000 people didnt take the least intrest in their own health, by not using the free care at the ER or didnt every bother to call for help, then i would venture to guess that these people are the bums that you see on the street.

Using a po box as an address is one way to scam the "system".

I didn't say it wasn't. What I asked is, are you suggesting, when you say people who died for lack of health care should have used "free" ER services, that 45,000 people a year *should* scam hospitals this way?

all hell would break loose, its that big of a problem.

With all due respect, you have no idea how big the problem is. We can all agree it's an issue. But if you want to blame sick Mexicans coming across the border for our health care expenses you have to do a whole lot better.


Ben

The hospitals are not allowed to keep track of who is given free care at the ER by the goverment because its that huge of a problem. Years ago when the liberals wrote the law to stop "paitent dumping" from the private hospitals to the public hospitals in the early 80s (i think) no one ever thouth that the people of mexico would flood accross the border. When the private hospitals started screaming about the Mexicans, the lieberal passed a law saying the hosiptials couldnt keep track of the numbers of mexicans using the discrimination laws.
this was done because its a HUGE HUGE problem and a HUGE drain on our healthcare dollars. Knowledgeable people go to the far northern midwestern states for surgerys because the cost is about half of what it is in the border states. These states dont have to deal with the problem of the mexicans.

Ya here is a response....Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??
Everyone knows how to take care of their body, how they should and what they should eat to be healthy.
So now answer this question.....When does someone become responsible for their actions in your world?

Let's see.. if I can't afford health insurance and use the emergency room for when I'm sick, where do I go for general checkups and routine preventative care?   Who paid for my visits to the doctor when I was only slightly over weight and the doctor might have enlightened me about my unhealthy lifestyle, prescribed an exercise regiment and refered me to a nutritionist to get some instruction on a healthy diet.  Not everyone knows how to take care of themselves.  Even if they do and are willing, they might see such choices as being out of reach of their budget.  A good nutritionist should be able to offer advice about good nutrition on a tight budget.

Affordable preventative medicine might go a long way towards reducing the overall cost of health care in this country.   But then again, I'm sure we are on the bleeding edge of innovative liposuction and gastric bypass surgery here in the US and  I wouldn't want to stifle that booming medical business.

Give me a break, everyone knows how to eat right, no one wants to do so. and everyone makes excuses until its heart attack or cancer time. then its the not my faults are heard.

What i am saying is if these 45,000 people didnt take the least intrest in their own health, by not using the free care at the ER or didnt every bother to call for help, then i would venture to guess that these people are the bums that you see on the street.

It's not as if these 45,000 uninsured people a year all neglect their health out of lack of interest.  There are plenty of uninsured out their that can't afford or aren't eligible for health insurance.

Walking in to the "free" emergency room in the final stages of cancer isn't going to do much good.  However, if caught early enough during routine screening there are several cancers that have a good chance of being cured.  

Walking in to the "free" emergency room with a heart attack or stroke isn't the greatest plan either.  A doctor monitoring your hypertension and other related risk factors during routine checkups and some preventative care is a much better plan to prevent that ER trip in the first place.

What i am saying is if these 45,000 people didnt take the least intrest in their own health, by not using the free care at the ER or didnt every bother to call for help, then i would venture to guess that these people are the bums that you see on the street.

It's not as if these 45,000 uninsured people a year all neglect their health out of lack of interest.  There are plenty of uninsured out their that can't afford or aren't eligible for health insurance.

Walking in to the "free" emergency room in the final stages of cancer isn't going to do much good.  However, if caught early enough during routine screening there are several cancers that have a good chance of being cured.  

Walking in to the "free" emergency room with a heart attack or stroke isn't the greatest plan either.  A doctor monitoring your hypertension and other related risk factors during routine checkups and some preventative care is a much better plan to prevent that ER trip in the first place.

One of the things i did after i sold my business is to volenteer at a food bank cooking for the homless. Now i only did this for a couple of mornings a week for about a month before i got so discussed. These are the 45,000 we are talking about. they dont have any intention of working but are bums. they get their ssi check which they use to buy booze or drugs they get free food, sleeping bags and even tents. They get free laundry and showers at the food bank. During the winter they get free shelter.

Now i asked several of these people why they live like this and they all said, why should i work i get everything i need for free.

So now to answer your question yes they choose to live like this and when they diem they die. Now th way you can tell if i am telling the truth is very simple...when was the last time a bum starved to death?

Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??

So, Ocean, in your world view, who judges whether a person is responsible for their poor health and decides they are not deserving of health care? Are we talking about your own version of "death panels"?

You still wont answer the question, when is someone held responsible for their actions when it comes to their health?

I don't know how to "hold people accountable" for their health care decisions, so I asked how you would do it. But you don't have a clue, do you? How do you judge, and then hold accountable, who has done a lousy job of taking care of themselves? Maybe a questionnaire, "Do you drink soda? Do you exercise?..."  and then you can decide who lives and dies from there -- a true death panel. Is that what you had in mind when you say "Hold accountable"?

Well, it seems like this thread has finally burned itself out.

I learned a lot from both sides. My opinion that health care works better under systems where it is made freely or cheaply available to everyone was significantly reinforced by all that I read on here.

I found most of the opposition to this view to be ideological (the "statistics" provided in opposition to this view were far from convincing). Overall tho', it seems most people agree that the current system needs improving.

We did discover that, if I may paraphrase, ocean_314 believes an individuals health care troubles are the fault of the individual and should be paid for by the individual. This principle apears to know no limits, extending as far as newborn orphans, cancer and stroke.

Apparently the concept of an accident does not exist in the world of ocean_314. All the more remarkable considering he is an avid abalone diver.

Good luck to Obama in getting it fixed, and good luck to ocean_314 in remaining invincible.

nothing worse than a cocky tea-bag    I felt that ocean-314 made a strong argument for some form of accountability in our new health care system. furthermore, he reminded me that i need to get my fat-ass off the couch and start taking better care of myself. I owe it to not only myself and my familly but also to my country. Thanks to all for your hard blogging.

Why are not people held responsible for the way they treat and in some case destroy their bodies??

So, Ocean, in your world view, who judges whether a person is responsible for their poor health and decides they are not deserving of health care? Are we talking about your own version of "death panels"?

You still wont answer the question, when is someone held responsible for their actions when it comes to their health?

I don't know how to "hold people accountable" for their health care decisions, so I asked how you would do it. But you don't have a clue, do you? How do you judge, and then hold accountable, who has done a lousy job of taking care of themselves? Maybe a questionnaire, "Do you drink soda? Do you exercise?..."  and then you can decide who lives and dies from there -- a true death panel. Is that what you had in mind when you say "Hold accountable"?

Upon applying for health coverage, a blood and urine test is taked. Within ones urine and blood are all the knowledge one needs to know what you are eating drinking and smoking. You look for markers such are cotinine which is the marker for tobacco use, or certian liver enzimes which tell you the amount of fat one is consuming and so one.

Or just take out a tape meausre and do a waist to hip ratio measurement.

Charge these people extra premiums for the extra health risks they are taking with their bodies and when you hit them in the pocket book or the employeer pocket book you will see major changes in the way these people take care of their bodies.

It will be just like cigerettes, it used to be 2/3rds of the country smoked but with all the added expenses to smoking now only 25% of the country smokes. Same thing will happen with obesity, hit them in their wallets and obesity will drop to around 25% of ther population.

Well, it seems like this thread has finally burned itself out.

I learned a lot from both sides. My opinion that health care works better under systems where it is made freely or cheaply available to everyone was significantly reinforced by all that I read on here.

I found most of the opposition to this view to be ideological (the "statistics" provided in opposition to this view were far from convincing). Overall tho', it seems most people agree that the current system needs improving.

We did discover that, if I may paraphrase, ocean_314 believes an individuals health care troubles are the fault of the individual and should be paid for by the individual. This principle apears to know no limits, extending as far as newborn orphans, cancer and stroke.

Apparently the concept of an accident does not exist in the world of ocean_314. All the more remarkable considering he is an avid abalone diver.

Good luck to Obama in getting it fixed, and good luck to ocean_314 in remaining invincible.

what we have learned is that you will go where you can get something for free, on the backs of those who are educated and hardworking. Cancer is mostly preventalbe, good diet exercise and no smoking and its become something rare. Stroke is fat unhealthy people. Once people take care of thier bodies health insurance becomes so inexpensive that anyone would be able afford great coverage..for those real needs like newborns.

And abalone is way to easy..I hunt fish and crabs 2 1/2 to 3 hours of intense freediving is one intense workout that keeps me it top physical condition. Its the most intense workout i can find. And just in case I have health insurnace castrophic care. I am going tommorrow chevice is swimming waiting for me!!

To Explain Longevity Gap, Look Past Health System

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/22/science/22tier.html

thats a more honest article then most but its still missing several factors. One is the we include accidents and murders and premature biths in our mortality stats while the rest of the world doesnt.
And he is using the medicare life tables to come up with the life expendecy of 78 years. Thats ten years out of date and should be around 88 years of age according to the up to date life insurnace mortality talbes.

the thing is is that the people who have lived to be 100 or more have been very heavily studied. Its always the same lifestyle, daily strenous exercise and poor mans died of mostly veges root crops fruit with meat as a treat when it is afforbale.
These people drink some and some even smoke tobacco but in very little amounts. FYI its takes 20 years of smoking cigerettes before you start getting hurt from it, the amounts you need to smoke is around 20,000 ciggerettes.

what we have learned is that you will go where you can get something for free, on the backs of those who are educated and hardworking.

  What do you know about my education? Or how hard I work?

Please, tell me everything you know.

Charge these people extra premiums for the extra health risks they are taking with their bodies

Ocean, that is the most reasonable thing you've come up with yet. It makes sense. The trick is to get premiums into a range that everyone can actually afford.

One is the we include accidents and murders and premature biths in our mortality stats while the rest of the world doesnt.

This isn't true. Check out WHOs website.

What *does* skew numbers slightly is that we include extremely weak, pre-mature babies, who aren't likely to live, in our statistics related to infant mortality. If I recall, only 8 other industrialized nations do the same. But, according to the WHO, we still rank at the bottom of those 8 and their take is that it didn't affect the overall rate substantially.

But the article was very good, I thought, especially the consideration of smoking rates in years past that would be coming home to roost about now.

Ben