I could live without healthcare reform! How about you?

The article you linked was a Balzak opinion piece from June 2001.

Do you deny that huge sums of money are extorted from patients through a system of anticompetitive monopolies known as patents?

Now you are saying that the patent system is an anticompetitive monolopy??? My god man the only reason that new tecnologys are invented constatnly in this country and new industrys are spawned is so that the little guy inventor can keep his invention for 17 years before all the big boys can steal his invention and undercut all his pricing and drive him out of business.

Are you completely against anyone gettiing rich?? Is getting rich a crime to you??? I have four patents and if not for the patent syetem i would have never been able to raise the money to start my company, I need 25 million and only got it because the tecnology i invented was patentable.

We would be still in the stone age without patents.

Now you are saying that the patent system is an anticompetitive monolopy???

Not me. Blame economics. Competition, according to theory, causes commercial firms to develop new products, services and technologies, which would give consumers greater selection and better products.

These de facto monopolies are quite common in the pharmaceutical and medical device industries and clearly destroy any allusions of competition in the market place.

Further reading on market failure in private heath care.

Robert Kuttner is a socialist with an agenda.  He also is far more knowledgeable about the subject than I am, having a vast array of research tools at his disposal.  I am always suspicious of those with an agenda.

My initial reaction to his article is that most people do not want the single payor system he is advocating.  The only reason that his argument passes the straight face test to begin with is the contention that there is a social mission to the practice of medicine, a premise that is too often assumed without being questioned.  Once we accept this premise - that all people are entitled to some level of care free of charge (supported by involuntary taxation) - then it is easy to justify a wide range of government controls on allocation of resources, etc.  I reject the premise as previously noted.

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Ocean - the attempt to divide the country along arbitrary lines is not solely the providence of the left.  It is unfortunate that this has devolved into a left/right issue.

As for Enron, I know exactly how they got away with what they were doing for as long as they did.  also, Washington suffered as well as California, but California took the brunt of it.

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Well then were did the if you disagree with Obama you are a racists start?? Where did the its the rual people against city folks start, come on this is classic attempt to divide the nation, Polski crying on TV saying that she is terrified about those right winger become violent and on and on...........

and yet not one word of why healthcare costs so much...nothing but fear divide in a desprate attempt to ......?????

Oh ya say a commercial during the Raiders game...60 minutes showing off the lastest greatest medical tecnology..an artifical arm that has a hand that works. Hmmm how much you think thats going to cost????  10 million a pop? 20 million?? eveyone who ahs lost an arm is going to demand one...who pays for it? Does an illegal alien get one for free just by walking into the ER????   THIS IS A HUGE QUESTION THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED. why wont the left deal with any of the real issues concerning the costs of healthcare.

Well then were did the if you disagree with Obama you are a racists start?? Where did the its the rual people against city folks start, come on this is classic attempt to divide the nation, Polski crying on TV saying that she is terrified about those right winger become violent and on and on...........

Whatever is the opposite of the place that Swiftboat Veterans, death panels, Obama is a Muslim, etc. came from.

I'm not sure how you get to the economic efficiency question from my statement that high costs are not necessarily indicative of a broken system.  I think cars, houses, and space travel are all expensive too.  The cost does not inform the debate.

Cost is the debate. Access is the debate. What do think this debate is about?

If you are not willing to compare efficiencies how could you ever determine the value of anything?

I will not fault a company for turning a profit, and I really don't care if you think the salaries are absurd.  Employees and executives operate in a free employment market.  Shareholders risked capital to invest in a business venture.  There is nothing bad or wrong about it

Even if care is sacrificed? Don't answer that, I know what you're going to say:

"Health care is not a basic human right"

Yes, libertarians, awesome. They want to share in all of the benefits of society as long as they aren’t required to contribute. Seems empathy, much like common sense, cannot be legislated either.

Personally I find it shameful to hold such a third world philosophy in a vastly wealthy nation.

Is health care a right or privilege?

BTW, do you know how convicts attained the explicit right to health care?

It was seen as cruel and unusual punishment to withhold it.

Yet 45,000 free American citizens die each year from a lack of health care.

Which is a point of pride I’m sure.

Yet 45,000 free American citizens die each year from a lack of health care.

Which is a point of pride I’m sure.

Nice. 

I'm done with you.

And why cant those 45,000 americans walk into the ER for free treatment? HMMM wonders if they are to drunk, stoned or high on drugs to get out for the creek bed or under the bridge to get care.

who are these people? why are they dying? and maybe if they took care of themselves they would have to worry about such things..

The patent system is terrible. I have 1 patent and 4 pending patents in my name from my work. The system is so amazingly broken and corrupt I can't even begin. 3 different companies in my space have patents that are the same and have tons of prior art yet they got them and use them against other people in the space. Now I know they are flawed but unless I have a crap load of money I can't get them over turned. Patent lawyers know all the ins and outs and can work around anything the examiner comes back with to work the system. If you think the patent system works I think you may want to re-examine it in its current form. It may have worked at some point but now it is totally broken.

i just want to thank you guys for the most pertinent and informative discussion i have seen on this subject. IMO  the  current system isn't working. unfortunately i think gov't run health care would take a bad thing and make it bad in a different way.

The patent system is terrible. I have 1 patent and 4 pending patents in my name from my work. The system is so amazingly broken and corrupt I can't even begin. 3 different companies in my space have patents that are the same and have tons of prior art yet they got them and use them against other people in the space. Now I know they are flawed but unless I have a crap load of money I can't get them over turned. Patent lawyers know all the ins and outs and can work around anything the examiner comes back with to work the system. If you think the patent system works I think you may want to re-examine it in its current form. It may have worked at some point but now it is totally broken.

I agree 100% I had big money behind me, Bain and Co was my venture capital, we used the best L. A. patent attorneys. when the pantent kicked back the first patent for an office action, IE rejection my attorney called up his bud the patent examiner and talked him through the technology and the patent was issued.

what is screwed up is the legal system, not only does healthcare law need reform, having been through intellectual property litigation twice i can tell you of the horror stories of unqualified judges appointed to the federal bench not because they have any trial or legal experience but only because of the color of their skin and their sex. Try arguing something as complex as patent law before a judge that has the legal knowledge of a law clerk and writes the briefs as if a law clerk is writting them.
I am sitting on an invention now that i will never patent even though its worth several million a year, just because of the legal system.

Yet 45,000 free American citizens die each year from a lack of health care.

Which is a point of pride I’m sure.

Nice. 

I'm done with you.

It's a relevant point tho'. You say access to health care is not a "right" but should be based on the ability to pay same as any other commodity. If so, people will die because they cannot afford health care. I'm not saying you'd be proud of that, but you have to at least accept it happens currently and, if the system were to be purely based upon ability to pay and all free taxpayer sponsered programs abolished, it would happen a lot more.

You still haven't answered my question about what happens to those who will never be able to afford healthcare under such a system; orphans, those unable to work through mental and physical disability, etc. They should just be left out in the street?

 

Last year Jelly got hurt in a football game.  He got backboarded and an ambulance ride.  He sat in the hallway for two to three hours, and got x-rays and a scan.  The bill AFTER insurance paid 80% was $7500.  If that doesn't seem @#$%^& ridiculous to you, please send me money.

My brother broke his wrist and collar bone in Spain in a bike crash 4 years ago. The ambulance ride, treatment, and cast, were all FREE. Upon returning home, he was asked to pay $90 to Kaiser, because the Spanish health care system picked up the rest of the tab! That is a great system.

Had he been injured here, the deductible would have been AT LEAST $1000, probably more.

Share your healthcare stories here!

1. I had a kidney stone. To confirm it truly was a stone, the ER sent me to have a CT scan. The tech stuck me in the machine and ran the scan, all 5 seconds of it. He scratched his chin and said "y'know what, I think we can get a better picture if we shift you over juuuuuuust a little bit". I shifted, the machine buzzed again and yeah, 5s later we had a slightly better picture. Those 5s cost 4K. Each. (Yes I had insurance).

2. A good friend of mine is pregnant. She made an appointment to see the Ob-Gyn nurse to take the foetal heartbeat, blood, etc. The Ob-gyn nurse went to her house. Ran all the tests in her living room and then sat with her for an hour explaining all the things she would have to do over the course of her pregnancy. A few weeks later, the friend gave herself a mild electric shock. Concerned, she called the Ob-gyn who, within an hour, was again at her house to do a quick check to make sure the baby was OK (heartbeat etc). The cost; nothing. Nothing at all. For trained medical staff to come to your house and examine you. Socialized medicine in the UK.

3. OK, so some of you are saying "no way. there is a cost associated with socialized medicine, look at the taxes you pay". Here's something. At the end of every month, there is less tax deducted from my pay here in the UK than when I lived in the US.

Last year Jelly got hurt in a football game.  He got backboarded and an ambulance ride.  He sat in the hallway for two to three hours, and got x-rays and a scan.  The bill AFTER insurance paid 80% was $7500.  If that doesn't seem @#$%^& ridiculous to you, please send me money.

My brother broke his wrist and collar bone in Spain in a bike crash 4 years ago. The ambulance ride, treatment, and cast, were all FREE. Upon returning home, he was asked to pay $90 to Kaiser, because the Spanish health care system picked up the rest of the tab! That is a great system.

Had he been injured here, the deductible would have been AT LEAST $1000, probably more.

Well golly gee, the hospital is not only billing you guys for your healthcare costs but for all those cost that they couldnt collect from those Mexicans that you all feel so sorry for. What are you bitching about...now you dont want to pay for someone elses free healthcare?  You sound like a Republican!