Pedal Power- questions on Mirage Drive performance

If this has been covered, somebody please paste the thread right on in...

A post about mirage drive wear/tear got me wondering about what people’s experiences have been with drive/hull performance, specifically speed and endurance. That said, there are a lot of ways this conversation could go.

I’ve always used a Hobie Outback as my primary vessel. I’ve paddled a few Sit Inside hulls and have pedaled a Hobie Classic and Sport, but not really enough to be able to compare to my Outback effectively.

So I guess a few key stats of interest would include:
Top speed-
I can manage about 6.5 mph for very short bursts in FAC conditions, with no current or wind.

Sustained speed for covering distances-
About 5mph in perfect conditions for up to 1.5 hours or so. I can go at trolling speed (1-3 mph for an entire day if I have food/water)

Max mileage (again in perfect conditions)-
The most I’ve done in a day was about 20 miles on lake Don Pedro one summer. Average trip is probably around 10 miles. I feel pretty burned and have wicked soreness in my knees at the end of a full day on the water.

If you have some figures you would like to share, for whatever you are paddling or pedaling, it would be sort of fun to have some data for comparison. I know the Outback is a barge, so those of you in Revo’s or hulls with less drag and draft probably have way higher numbers. Looking forward to checking out any replies!

I have owned both reciprocating (hobie) and rotary bicycle style drives. I far preferred the bicycle rotary drives for comfort and efficiency. With that said I still put a TON of happy miles on hobie drives.

I have owned both reciprocating (hobie) and rotary bicycle style drives. I far preferred the bicycle rotary drives for comfort and efficiency. With that said I still put a TON of happy miles on hobie drives.

Interesting. I have exactly the opposite experience with my Native Manta Ray and my Hobie Outback. For me, the mirage drive is much faster with less effort.

Getting back to the original post, my top speed in the Hobie is about 6mph, sustained speed about 4, and my typical mileage is about 7-9 miles, but some of that is usually drifting. I don't have any discomfort after a day, usually 6 hours, on the water.

Kayak hull shape will determine the maximum in the categories listed. Long, narrow, will always be more efficient and faster through the water whether rotational pedaling or Hobie's push push style. If a full  rotational bicycle setup were placed in say, an Hobie Adventure hull, I think the efficiency and the speed of the prop would be greater than the Hobie flippers, in that full rotation makes better use of more leg muscles and can maintain force momentum through a full cycle. Hobie's system is relatively light in weight and can go through the shallows and weeds better than a prop and can generate a lot of torque because of the surface area of the fins. Going against a hard current, be it river or tidal swing, they dig in and push.

If this has been covered, somebody please paste the thread right on in...

A post about mirage drive wear/tear got me wondering about what peopleÂ’s experiences have been with drive/hull performance, specifically speed and endurance. That said, there are a lot of ways this conversation could go.

IÂ’ve always used a Hobie Outback as my primary vessel. IÂ’ve paddled a few Sit Inside hulls and have pedaled a Hobie Classic and Sport, but not really enough to be able to compare to my Outback effectively.

So I guess a few key stats of interest would include:
Top speed-
I can manage about 6.5 mph for very short bursts in FAC conditions, with no current or wind.

Sustained speed for covering distances-
About 5mph in perfect conditions for up to 1.5 hours or so. I can go at trolling speed (1-3 mph for an entire day if I have food/water)

Max mileage (again in perfect conditions)-
The most IÂ’ve done in a day was about 20 miles on lake Don Pedro one summer. Average trip is probably around 10 miles. I feel pretty burned and have wicked soreness in my knees at the end of a full day on the water.

If you have some figures you would like to share, for whatever you are paddling or pedaling, it would be sort of fun to have some data for comparison. I know the Outback is a barge, so those of you in RevoÂ’s or hulls with less drag and draft probably have way higher numbers. Looking forward to checking out any replies!

My speed/endurance “stats” are very similar to yours, and my primary kayak is also an Outback. I’ve done something north of 20 miles in a day - FF battery died at about 19.5 miles then I trolled a bit more before pedaling the ~2 miles back to Bolinas from the salmon grounds. I was definitely wiped out and sore after that. Most trips are 15 miles or less I’d say.

That said, I usually don’t venture more than about 4-5 miles from my launch spot unless I know I’ll be able to ride the wind/current home.


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I'm in the Adventure but I have gone with the one outrigger set-up almost exclusively for the last couple of years. Typical day is 11 to 13 miles. I did a very fast-paced 17 mile day some years back at Berryessa and ended up having a heart attack walking up the hill to retrieve my car and trailer in the darkness.

The one outrigger set-up slows me down but allows me to bring a ton of extra stuff to spread out on the trampoline and not have to reach around to get rods, tackle and cooler all the time. I'm never pushing it either. I troll almost the whole way to a spot I have on Camanche (5 miles) and maybe half that length coming back in unless it's already dark out.

The only time I've ever had knee pain was trying to sit more upright and not getting full leg extension vs lounging back low in the seat with full peddle strokes. Makes a difference for me. I have the mirage drive on the far setting so I can get full extension on each leg. For short work for positioning etc. the more upright posture and less than full strokes seems fine as long as I don't punch the pedals.

Never really went crazy with the speed when I operated with just the clean kayak (no outrigger). The boat is really fast when you get on it. Probably for me 8+ mph. My normal semi-relaxed speed without having a line in the water is close to 6 mph clean and 4-5 mph with the (Adventure Island) outrigger and extra gear.   

... full rotation makes better use of more leg muscles and can maintain force momentum through a full cycle...

If a prop bicycle-like kayak pedal system had gears and a freewheel, it might be hard to beat. But, otherwise I'm not so sure.

This is just conjecture, since I've never pedaled a prop system, but it seems to me that one advantage of the flipper system is that it can "glide" with minimal drag, as compared to a prop. That is, if you stop pedaling, or even just slow your cadence below the speed needed to keep up with the boat, the flippers will create a little drag, but it's minimal as compared to what a propeller would do under comparable circumstances. This prop issue is magnified if there is no freewheel on the bike pedals (which seems to be the case, since those kayaks all advertise instant reverse). Of course, you could pull the prop out of the water, but you're not going to do that over and over and over.

Anyways, this glide effect is especially noticeable on a Hobie when sailing at a moderate speed with the mirage drive in the drivewell. I can't imagine sailing at any reasonable speed with a prop hanging down there.

Another way to say this is that the mirage drive never really works "against" you in the way that a propeller can. Over a relatively short time-frame with constant pedaling at just the right cadence, I can see that bike pedals/propeller would be appealing. But over a long day of trolling under real-world conditions, I'd bet the mirage drive wins--all else being equal.

I'm with ppickeral on the bike type drive over the fin type. I sold my Outback and now own a beast of a big fish 108 with a bike type drive. I can pedal with it all day and my knees don't hurt, like the hobie drive does to them. After a long 7-8 hours on a lake, in my hobie, trying to get out I really can't and my knees hurt so bad as well as my back. my hobie was an old 2006 model.

Got into the "beast" and I am more comfortable, the drive is less pressure on my knees and I can go at a pretty decent speed for a long period of time. for as big and heavy as the kayak is, it is really easy to get moving on the water

I have a bike style pedal -> NuCanoe Flint with Pivot Drive, and though I sold my other Hobie a while ago, I just purchased a Revo 13 the other day .  My wife thinks I'm insane.  But for discussion purposes, I have both. 

Agreeing with NowhereMan, in my bike configuration, I usually keep my feet on the pedals and the boat does not glide very efficiently as you have a drag chute deployed. 

Granted that a Revo vs Flint is apples to kumquats but the Revo hull is very efficient.   I generally do 5-8 hours in my old Hobie or Flint and it was more a matter of getting used to it.  Building up endurance as needed.  My initial forays out with the bike style were really tiring! 

kumquats

Lots of good information. Thanks to all who replied. I think some of the feedback confirmed a developing idea, that my next hull would be a Revo. I’ve never tried the bicycle style pedal drive and sort of prefer the notion of sticking with a Hobie or converting to a paddle kayak with a real efficient hull design and enough deck space for all of my accessories I’ve become so fond of having.

Also confirmed a suspicion that I’ve let the muscle mass dwindle too far in my legs, need to bulk back up so 10-12 mile days feel like nothing again.

Granted that there is more glide with the flipper fins than a prop but the fins also, even if tucked against the hull, have drag. This is most noticeable for me if I leave the drive in, fins tight to the hull, and paddle as opposed to pulling the drive out and paddling. If trolling, isn't the effort, either fin or pedal, always continuous? Having a bike free wheel, or gears would not mitigate the prop drag. A collapsible or variable pitch prop might. I do know that the guys into racing pedal powered kayaks use props on very narrow hulls with outriggers for support. Kind of set up recumbent bike like to maximize power and efficiency. Unsuitable for our use as a fishing craft.

For me it’s a matter of a bad hip not liking the push motion as opposed to circular motion, hull design is definitely going to make a difference as well as how smooth your hull is. My wife’s Slayer is faster then my Mariner with the same peddle speed side by side. I have sanded smooth the rougher edges of my Larger scratches and salmon trolling it made a slight difference for trolling the rivers ( noticed my speed increased even though my peddling was consistent)

I have owned both reciprocating (hobie) and rotary bicycle style drives. I far preferred the bicycle rotary drives for comfort and efficiency. With that said I still put a TON of happy miles on hobie drives.

Agreed! I have a hobie and a few topwater PDLS and prefer my topwater over the hobies for comfort and never have to service my drive. For me I also find that the bicycle movement is easier on my knees but that is just me

Lots of good information. Thanks to all who replied. I think some of the feedback confirmed a developing idea, that my next hull would be a Revo. I’ve never tried the bicycle style pedal drive and sort of prefer the notion of sticking with a Hobie or converting to a paddle kayak with a real efficient hull design and enough deck space for all of my accessories I’ve become so fond of having.

Also confirmed a suspicion that I’ve let the muscle mass dwindle too far in my legs, need to bulk back up so 10-12 mile days feel like nothing again.

I’m not sure which outback you own, but I’ll throw in my thoughts of newer Revo (‘15 it hasn’t changed much since) last gen outback (‘17) and new outback (‘19).

UNLOADED
The revo is the most efficient “kayak” when empty or lightly loaded. The new hull outback is less efficient by a bit when empty. The older outback hull is absolute garbage for efficiency when empty.

LOADED
Who the hell goes out unloaded?  Throw some fishing rods, tackle, safety gear, food, water, ice, and of course fish into the mix and now you are talking. The new outback crushes the revo in efficiency when loaded. That includes paddling if the mirage drive fails (when not if  ) And again the old style outback is absolute garbage.

At any rate try before you buy and maybe bring a 5gal bucket to fill with water and put in the back to simulate weight because they will handle very differently loaded vs unloaded.