Federal judge strikes down California’s ban on high-capacity gun magazines

but the thing of it is none of the mass shootings I mentioned were committed by felons. So while this is a valid concept I can support, it sidesteps my actual questions of : what do firearms enthusiasts see as a way forward to try and prevent these events from occurring?

Allow every law abiding citizen to carry.  Personally, I think open carry sends the strongest message to would-be murders. 
Look; banning inanimate objects does nothing at best and likely causes more harm.  Spot the one common thread–not the weapon, but a person with intent.  Liberal laws do their best not to 'profile', but there's just something plain wrong when grandma is groped by TSA and 100,000 illegals pour across our borders last month alone unchecked. 

There's kind of a lot to unpack in this comment, but I disagree with most of it.  Concealed carry is better.  The common thread is that there isn't a common thread and figuring out who is going to go off the rails is not remotely easy and would probably require unacceptable intrusions into people's privacy.  Illegals pouring across our border has nohing to do with guns or magazine size.  They aren't coming here to shoot you.  They just want to work or escape a shit situation or get free high quality medical care or some combination of those.

Agreed that banning things that people want and can get anyway is dumb.
Agreed that TSA groping of granny is stupid.

O.K., why is concealed carry better than open carry?  Would you be afraid to come into an establishment and see this?  Personally, I'd sit next to him than not. 


But there IS a common thread.  In almost every instance the shooter gave strong signals they were troubled.  But partly due to libel laws, people keep their mouth shut and don't adhere to "if you see something, say something" or "trust your instincts".   Interviews of those who knew the suspect seem to tell the same story about how they knew this character was a loose cannon with it's fuse lit, ready to go off. 

You miss my point, I'd say on purpose, about the border security issue and grandma.  The point is; our nation does not enforce laws, but waste the budget available on grandma.  With illegals, it's violence.  Gun, rock throwing, doesn't matter.  The fact that they are a criminal from the moment they enter our country tells me a lot about their character and whether or not I need to fear them.  They are dangerous until they are vetted.  Grandma sure as hell is considered dangerous until she's been. 

I know I do not articulate myself well when trying to express how I feel on a topic, but I will say that, as a military vet with an honorable discharge, issued a weapon and trained how to use it, I am insulted by my government that I am now not trusted to continue in that capacity in my civilian life. 

You don't have to vet grandma.  She's made it this far in life without trouble and apparently isn't on the no-fly list.  What is she going to do, pinch your cheeks and bake you a brownie? 

You don't have to vet grandma.  She's made it this far in life without trouble and apparently isn't on the no-fly list.  What is she going to do, pinch your cheeks and bake you a brownie?

I’ll bet at least half of those groped by  TSA actually enjoyed it, ask grandma before taking away her rights for a free feal up.

All comes down to one thing in my opinion... An ARMED society IS a POLITE society. How many mass shootings happened at the gun clubs in the last 10 years? At the gun shop or the police station... NO The Terminator movie don’t count, nor a simple attempted armed robbery at the gun shop.

You don't have to vet grandma.  She's made it this far in life without trouble and apparently isn't on the no-fly list.  What is she going to do, pinch your cheeks and bake you a brownie?

I’ll bet at least half of those groped by  TSA actually enjoyed it, ask grandma before taking away her rights for a free feal up.

When I took my step mother and my dad to the airport, I had a sky-cap wheel Dad while I wheeled her through TSA check point.  When they were done, I was blushing.  I asked her if she was o.k.  She said she hadn't been felt up like that since her first husband on their wedding night!  Ha! 
We went over to where Dad was just clearing TSA and reloading his pockets with the stuff he had to empty.  He had 3 (THREE!) pocket knives on him and not one was confiscated.  I asked the sky-cap how Dad made it though with 3 knives.  He just shrugged his shoulders and shook his head.  Dad makes it through with 3 knives and step-mom is felt up.  How wrong do things have to get before we admit it's all messed up!!

Illegals pouring across our border has nohing to do with guns or magazine size.  They aren't coming here to shoot you.  They just want to work or escape a shit situation or get free high quality medical care or some combination of those.

I just gotta reply to this again; You do not know why they are coming here other than what the liberal press tells you since that is the line from them you are parroting.  Politicians paint these criminals as 'undocumented residents', but they are not.  They are criminals who ignore our most basic of laws.  If they are coming to escape a shit situation, then they are cowards and I will not advocate for their refuge status until they have done what our nation did and that is to stand up to their government and put their life on the line for their and their family's freedom.  Vietnam taught us we can't do it for them.  But, wait, how can they protect themselves if they are not allowed to own their own firearms?   

Come on, don't be such an old white guy. 

And I can't agree more with this new line of thought from our President

President Trump on Thursday said he plans to give Mexico a “one-year warning” before closing the southern border, retreating on a threat he made last week that he would close the border in the coming days if Mexico didn’t halt all illegal immigration.

“The only thing, frankly, better and less drastic than closing the border is tariff the cars coming in, and I will do it,” Mr. Trump said, speaking to reporters after a meeting with the White House Opportunity and Revitalization Council. “I don’t play games.”

He added: “If the drugs don’t stop or aren’t largely stopped, we’re going to put tariffs on Mexico and products, in particular cars — the whole ballgame is cars. And if that doesn’t stop the drugs, we close the border.”

And I can't agree more with this new line of thought from our President

President Trump on Thursday said he plans to give Mexico a “one-year warning” before closing the southern border, retreating on a threat he made last week that he would close the border in the coming days if Mexico didn’t halt all illegal immigration.

“The only thing, frankly, better and less drastic than closing the border is tariff the cars coming in, and I will do it,” Mr. Trump said, speaking to reporters after a meeting with the White House Opportunity and Revitalization Council. “I don’t play games.”

He added: “If the drugs don’t stop or aren’t largely stopped, we’re going to put tariffs on Mexico and products, in particular cars — the whole ballgame is cars. And if that doesn’t stop the drugs, we close the border.”

he should apply the same rules to China and other countries that are sending over drugs each and every day....

Will not happen! Hot air. That would kick off a recession so big even the republican senators would revolt.

Will not happen! Hot air. That would kick off a recession so big even the republican senators would revolt.

So your fear says that it is better to let drugs flow freely through our ports and borders.!?!?!?!?!  Great plan

Here's the problem. We are the market. We buy the stuff. A seller can always be found to fill the desire. If China and Mexico dropped out of the supply chain US citizens with chemical expertise will fill the demand. Once, Mexico supplied weed, dirt weed it came to be known as when good old US residents got into the scene and produced a far better product.

Here's the problem. We are the market. We buy the stuff. A seller can always be found to fill the desire. If China and Mexico dropped out of the supply chain US citizens with chemical expertise will fill the demand. Once, Mexico supplied weed, dirt weed it came to be known as when good old US residents got into the scene and produced a far better product.

so then its a win win for the USA.  We get better Made in the USA drugs and we eliminate a cheap import.  MAGA

doubt it would kick off a huge recession though as you predict 

When I took my step mother and my dad to the airport, I had a sky-cap wheel Dad while I wheeled her through TSA check point.  When they were done, I was blushing.  I asked her if she was o.k.  She said she hadn't been felt up like that since her first husband on their wedding night!  Ha! 
We went over to where Dad was just clearing TSA and reloading his pockets with the stuff he had to empty.  He had 3 (THREE!) pocket knives on him and not one was confiscated.  I asked the sky-cap how Dad made it though with 3 knives.  He just shrugged his shoulders and shook his head.  Dad makes it through with 3 knives and step-mom is felt up.  How wrong do things have to get before we admit it's all messed up!!

It's just security theater, it doesn't actually make anyone safer.  And it costs billions upon billions of dollars.

Illegals pouring across our border has nohing to do with guns or magazine size.  They aren't coming here to shoot you.  They just want to work or escape a shit situation or get free high quality medical care or some combination of those.

I just gotta reply to this again; You do not know why they are coming here other than what the liberal press tells you since that is the line from them you are parroting.  Politicians paint these criminals as 'undocumented residents', but they are not.  They are criminals who ignore our most basic of laws.  If they are coming to escape a shit situation, then they are cowards and I will not advocate for their refuge status until they have done what our nation did and that is to stand up to their government and put their life on the line for their and their family's freedom.  Vietnam taught us we can't do it for them.  But, wait, how can they protect themselves if they are not allowed to own their own firearms?   

Ugh.  There is so much cruelty in your post.  Absolutely vicious cruelty.

I might not know exactly why each individual is coming here, but tens of thousands of people don't just migrate here to fuck with you or piss you off.  They don't upend their own lives in search of how to best freeload or troll you.  That there are so many people that believe so many would do that is embarrassing. 

Lets parse this out with the most basic stuff first.

If they are coming to escape a shit situation, then they are cowards and I will not advocate for their refuge status until they have done what our nation did and that is to stand up to their government and put their life on the line for their and their family's freedom.  Vietnam taught us we can't do it for them.

Refugee status is recognized and protected in US and international law.  This came in the aftermath of World War 2 and the large displacement of peoples, mostly Jewish and slavic.  I won't bore you with definitions but these are desperate people and they don't give a fuck what names you call them.  The US admitted hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese refugees between 1975 and 2000.  I couldn't find exact numbers but it is at least 700,000.  Another million went to other countries.  Whatever Vietnam signifies to you, it does not stand for the proposition that we can't help refugees who are displaced. 

Today Vietnamese people in the USA thrive.  And these folks did stand up and fight and die for their freedom in their own country.  It's not remotely the same situation in Mexico, where the threat isn't their own government but organized crime.  The very high murder rates are tied directly to the drug war, and most murders are unsolved.  So the solution is to escalate the drug war??!!??!!

You do not know why they are coming here other than what the liberal press tells you since that is the line from them you are parroting.

Yeah you can fuck right off.  I don't follow any liberal media.  Can't paint me with that stroke.  I haven't attacked you, or tried to pigeonhole you into some political corner, and I'm not going to put up with it.  Use facts, not feelings.  The facts don't care about your feelings.

I know why some came here because I ask them.  I can extrapolate the rest from data.  Non-refugee based illegal immigration is closely tied to relative economic conditions in the countries.  During the recession on the mid 2000s to 2013 or so, there was a net negative migration of over a million illegal immigrants.  Today with our economy booming here and the jobs we have added, we are attracting workers again.  It has always been this way.  In every country, ever.  It is basic supply and demand economics.

Most of the people in this country illegally are not criminals.  Violating immigration law is not a crime.  That is why immigration courts are administrative courts and the people standing for deportation are not entitled to lawyers.  There is also a lower standard of evidentiary proof.  You wouldn't want it to be a crime, since it would be harder and much more expensive to deport people.

Most people violate our basic laws every day.  Did you speed on the highway today?  Did you fail to yield to a pedestrian?  Roll a stop sign?  Spare me the sanctimonious crap.

Here's the problem. We are the market. We buy the stuff. A seller can always be found to fill the desire. If China and Mexico dropped out of the supply chain US citizens with chemical expertise will fill the demand. Once, Mexico supplied weed, dirt weed it came to be known as when good old US residents got into the scene and produced a far better product.

so then its a win win for the USA.  We get better Made in the USA drugs and we eliminate a cheap import.   

doubt it would kick off a huge recession though as you predict 

Just because you suck at math and economics doesn't mean that we should invalidate your feelings.

It's like y'all are saying - Look, I know that we have this problem at the border, and the solution should be to keep them out at all costs no matter what.  Let's cut off all trade with our third largest trading partner.  Let's massively disrupt the economy of both countries, destabilizing both, throw hundreds of thousands of people out of work, raise prices on the vast majority of goods, cause major price inflation, create black markets and further enable organized crime to make even more money, and do it because we can't learn the lesson that was part of the original point of this thread - that if people want something they are going to get it and they aren't going to follow laws they don't want to follow.

How many of you turned in your magazines greater than 10 rounds?
How many of you turned in your bump stocks?  It's a felony to possess one now, you know that, right?

Threatening to close the border with Mexico is the stupidest thing I've ever heard come out of a president's mouth.  There isn't even a close second, which was "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."  Followed closely by "That depends upon what the meaning of is is."

I was going to let it go Jerry but since you repeated it, here you go.

Please don’t make us have to lock this thread. 

My agreement on the statement made by Trump is that we should do whatever we can to keep drugs from entering the country.  The “we” in this are the people that have the ability and training. Police border patrol military. I know it has been tried before and failed but I believe it is a worthwhile endeavor.  So much more to say on this but just getting tired of this thread and the hate.

When I took my step mother and my dad to the airport, I had a sky-cap wheel Dad while I wheeled her through TSA check point.  When they were done, I was blushing.  I asked her if she was o.k.  She said she hadn't been felt up like that since her first husband on their wedding night!  Ha! 
We went over to where Dad was just clearing TSA and reloading his pockets with the stuff he had to empty.  He had 3 (THREE!) pocket knives on him and not one was confiscated.  I asked the sky-cap how Dad made it though with 3 knives.  He just shrugged his shoulders and shook his head.  Dad makes it through with 3 knives and step-mom is felt up.  How wrong do things have to get before we admit it's all messed up!!

It's just security theater, it doesn't actually make anyone safer.  And it costs billions upon billions of dollars.

No. It's not just theater.  It is our federal government harassing it's most vulnerable citizens.  Step-mom is 92 years old.  Dad is 87.
How come it's just theater when it's our citizens, but I'm the cruel one when I want those who want to come into our country for asylum to be vetted?     

Illegals pouring across our border has nohing to do with guns or magazine size.  They aren't coming here to shoot you.  They just want to work or escape a shit situation or get free high quality medical care or some combination of those.

I just gotta reply to this again; You do not know why they are coming here other than what the liberal press tells you since that is the line from them you are parroting.  Politicians paint these criminals as 'undocumented residents', but they are not.  They are criminals who ignore our most basic of laws.  If they are coming to escape a shit situation, then they are cowards and I will not advocate for their refuge status until they have done what our nation did and that is to stand up to their government and put their life on the line for their and their family's freedom.  Vietnam taught us we can't do it for them.  But, wait, how can they protect themselves if they are not allowed to own their own firearms?   

Ugh.  There is so much cruelty in your post.  Absolutely vicious cruelty.

If my words are cruel, then perhaps you'll be glad to know that words like mine are soon to be banned.  First the magazines, the ammo, the guns and coming up quick, words. 

I might not know exactly why each individual is coming here, but tens of thousands of people don't just migrate here to fuck with you or piss you off.

Oh, so cruel to twist my words to say that I think they are coming to fuck or piss me off.  I never even HINTED that was why they are coming.  They come here because our borders are OUT OF CONTROL. 

  They don't upend their own lives in search of how to best freeload or troll you.  That there are so many people that believe so many would do that is embarrassing. 

Again, you put words in my mouth.  I never said they are freeloading or trolling me.  I said they are cowards for not being the patriots our nation was founded on when we were in this situation.  In fact, it was you that said they were coming here for the "free high quality health care", not me.

If they are coming to escape a shit situation, then they are cowards and I will not advocate for their refuge status until they have done what our nation did and that is to stand up to their government and put their life on the line for their and their family's freedom.  Vietnam taught us we can't do it for them.

Refugee status is recognized and protected in US and international law.  This came in the aftermath of World War 2 and the large displacement of peoples, mostly Jewish and slavic.  I won't bore you with definitions but these are desperate people and they don't give a fuck what names you call them.  The US admitted hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese refugees between 1975 and 2000.  I couldn't find exact numbers but it is at least 700,000.  Another million went to other countries.  Whatever Vietnam signifies to you, it does not stand for the proposition that we can't help refugees who are displaced. 

Today Vietnamese people in the USA thrive.  And these folks did stand up and fight and die for their freedom in their own country.  It's not remotely the same situation in Mexico, where the threat isn't their own government but organized crime.  The very high murder rates are tied directly to the drug war, and most murders are unsolved.  So the solution is to escalate the drug war??!!??!!

What the hell are you talking about??!!  This isn't about Mexicans crossing the border.  This is about 100,000 illegal's from central/south America, crossing Mexico and ignoring the process the Viet's honored in order to come to America.  Vietnamese came here only AFTER being vetted.  Not because they rushed the boarder and instantly became criminals in doing so. 

You do not know why they are coming here other than what the liberal press tells you since that is the line from them you are parroting.

Yeah you can fuck right off.  I don't follow any liberal media.

And yet your opine is right out of their handbook.   

Can't paint me with that stroke.  I haven't attacked you, or tried to pigeonhole you into some political corner, and I'm not going to put up with it.  Use facts, not feelings.  The facts don't care about your feelings.

Wow!  You really don't see the attacks you made towards me? 

Non-refugee based illegal immigration is closely tied to relative economic conditions in the countries.  During the recession on the mid 2000s to 2013 or so, there was a net negative migration of over a million illegal immigrants.  Today with our economy booming here and the jobs we have added, we are attracting workers again.  It has always been this way.  In every country, ever.  It is basic supply and demand economics.

And I'm saying I don't give a shit why they are coming, as long as they are storming the borders to avoid the legal process, they are a huge potential danger.  If even 1% of them are looking to harm America, that's 1,000 in the past month alone.  All because they are not being interviewed and following a process on entering the country legally. 

Most of the people in this country illegally are not criminals.  Violating immigration law is not a crime.

Actually, it is a crime.  Illegal entry to the US carries criminal penalties (fines and jail or prison time), in addition to civil penalties and immigration consequences (deportation and bars from future entry).
Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws. Illegal entry also carries consequences for anyone who might later attempt to apply for a green card or other immigration benefit.
The penalties and consequences get progressively more severe if a person enters illegally more than once, or enters illegally after an order of removal (deportation) or having been convicted of an aggravated felony.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-enter-illegally.html

  That is why immigration courts are administrative courts and the people standing for deportation are not entitled to lawyers. 

I can't believe I'm hearing this from you.  Every PERSON on US soil is afforded the protection of the constitution of the United States.  As a result, many of the basic rights, such as the freedom of religion and speech, the right to due process and equal protection under the law apply to citizens and noncitizens. The Fifth Amendment states that “no person … shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” NO PERSON, not just citizens.
It is for this reason, that they are afforded the protection of the constitution once they cross the border, that Trump is wanting to close the border!!  Why do you think he wants to close the border??  Once across, the government has 20 days to file charges.  If they don't then the illegal has to be released. 

There is also a lower standard of evidentiary proof.  You wouldn't want it to be a crime, since it would be harder and much more expensive to deport people.

I seriously do not know where you are coming up with this stuff. 

Most people violate our basic laws every day.  Did you speed on the highway today?  Did you fail to yield to a pedestrian?  Roll a stop sign?  Spare me the sanctimonious crap.

None of those violations make me a criminal as they are not crimes.  Traffic violations usually lead to a traffic ticket and are considered infractions.  Some traffic infractions can be serious enough to lead to misdemeanor or felony charges, but if they do, I can be sure I'd be facing a trial.  Entering the USA without following the laws is a crime. 

It's like y'all are saying - Look, I know that we have this problem at the border, and the solution should be to keep them out at all costs no matter what.  Let's cut off all trade with our third largest trading partner.  Let's massively disrupt the economy of both countries, destabilizing both, throw hundreds of thousands of people out of work, raise prices on the vast majority of goods, cause major price inflation, create black markets and further enable organized crime to make even more money, and do it because we can't learn the lesson that was part of the original point of this thread - that if people want something they are going to get it and they aren't going to follow laws they don't want to follow.

This didn't develop over night.  This has been the result of decades of all politicians.  Trump won the white house because voters are sick and tired of the status quo.  Trump wants congress to do it's damn job.  If they won't then he'll step in and make 'em wish by GOD that they did do their job without having to get him involved. 

Ever work for a boss?  And while working for that boss, ever have a dispute with another worker?  If so, then you KNOW the last thing you want to do is bring the problem to the boss.  What ever solution the boss comes up with is gonna be worse than either of you wanted.  So it behooves you and your co worker to work out a solution. 
So it is here; Dems and Republicans are in disagreement.  They can't come up with a solution, so the boss steps in, makes a solution that neither want and so encourages them to come up with a solution.  And quick! 
Kinda like the judgement of Solomon, where he rules to cut the baby in two when two women claim the child is theirs.   

How many of you turned in your magazines greater than 10 rounds?
How many of you turned in your bump stocks?  It's a felony to possess one now, you know that, right?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't have 'em, never had 'em and never felt a need for 'em.  I do resent our government deciding I am not responsible enough to own 'em though.  Especially on the premise for my own safety.  Taking away my right to either of those things makes me no safer than I was before their laws.

Threatening to close the border with Mexico is the stupidest thing I've ever heard come out of a president's mouth.  There isn't even a close second, which was "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."  Followed closely by "That depends upon what the meaning of is is."

Yea, but he sure got everyone's attention about our border security problem, didn't he?  What is more stupid than Trump's threat is how congress got us to that point to begin with.  Trump was elected to shake up this government and I hope he continues to do so. 

I was going to let it go Jerry but since you repeated it, here you go.

Hey, no worries Doug!   I found this to be a worthy discussion.  I doubt either of us will change our opinions on the topics, or anyone else's for that matter, but at least you and are man enough to step to the plate and express them.