AOTY Rule Clarification

Fish and have fun. Time is short. Heard this some where

Really.................... dont fish close their mouths naturally at sometime? Ive seen fish all over the place alive with the mouth closed at times.  If you kill a fish while taking a pic with the mouth closed you just arent doing something right. Run the head up against the backboard, hold the fish there, take the pic. Simple. If I can do it anyone can. Because Im a dumbshit anyway.
 
When the DFG wardens measure fish they pinch the tail together to get a reading there. Ive seen it many many times at the ramps. Not just the fish counters. The wardens too. Who are law.

Dude, have you looked at your own fish! C'mon fess up, not trying to single you out, but seems like you have trouble like the rest of us (see below) and I rank you as pro status. There is no conspiracy here. Some of us are saying that it is hard to get a perfect shot, can a mouth ajar be exploited for a few extra points? sure, is it reasonable that sometimes the mouth just won't shut completely YES, that's why this discussion never dies! Its pretty obvious when the mouth is wide open or gills are flared that its a bad measure, but DQ'ing a fish for a mouth ajar seems extreme if it was attempted to be closed,  a point deduction seems much more reasonable in this case.

I beg to differ with you Rob on this point. The picture that you put up of my Spot was when the rule was mouth open or slightly ajar. Now when you have THAT rule, I will and did take it to the acceptable limit. Anything else would be idiotic on my part.

Glad the rule about members not fighting on the boards was added. Good call for the club I think.
Matt


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Really....................  If you kill a fish while taking a pic with the mouth closed you just arent doing something right. Run the head up against the backboard, hold the fish there, take the pic. Simple. If I can do it anyone can. Because Im a dumbshit anyway.
 

Don't be so hard on yourself
Maybe, you just haven't caught enough fish (or educated yourself enough) to realize that quite often, Kokanee and other species have normal defects as they enter the spawning phase in life .... It is actually common for Kokanee at bass lake to have jaws facing different directions (upper facing right and lower facing left) as they beguin to transform during the spawn. This common defect usually occurs on fish over 18" and makes it impossible to close in a natural way. If you would like info on this, contact any guide on Bass Lake (Todd Witwer or Rick Lyon) or your local Kokanee Club.
Now,
I didn't start this thread to cause a fight or imply any wrong doing and I hate what I see becoming a norm with some, I was simply asking for clarification of the rules ..... maybe there is some truth to your statement, but lets hope not.

  Why no point deduction?  For the same reason.  There is no black and white way to determine what a fair point deduction would be.  But what is fair really?  If you submit a picture that doesn't adhere to the rules well boo on you, your fish is DQ'd.  That's your fault and no one else's.  Seems fair enough to me.

I say this with the utmost respect, but that is BS.
If the committee can make an objective decision about whether "a fish's mouth is closed enough" then they can objectively determine an appropriate measurement for the fish.
For example, if someone enters a 20" LMB with its mouth agape then it should probably be adjusted to 19.5" ...instead of disqualifying the fish entirely. This seems completely reasonable to me. And I bet everybody participating would vote for point-deductions over disqualification. 
But before someone complains that it would take too much time for committee members to handle something like this...then make me the committee and I'll personally do it.

So now you play by the new rules.  Mouth shut!

Pun intended?!?! 

I say this with the utmost respect, but that is BS.
If the committee can make an objective decision about whether "a fish's mouth is closed enough" then they can objectively determine an appropriate measurement for the fish.
For example, if someone enters a 20" LMB with its mouth agape then it should probably be adjusted to 19.5" ...instead of disqualifying the fish entirely. This seems completely reasonable to me. And I bet everybody participating would vote for point-deductions over disqualification. 
But before someone complains that it would take too much time for committee members to handle something like this...then make me the committee and I'll personally do it.

I don't think there's a doubt that someone can deduct points from a fish when the mouth is not closed, the problem is that would then make the measurement subjective to the whims of one (or three) people versus another competitor's fish.  Each fish is different and so the deduction would be different.  I think the way the rules are written now are as much of a deterrent as to something that would be useful in actual practice.  The committee has already made the decision and the rule is set for the year.  I think if it doesnt work out or too many fish are Dq'd then it would be something that is worth looking at again for 2014.  One possible way would to make a blanket deduction of X points or inches (enough that it would more than cover the cost of the mouth being open) for anyone who didn't have their fish with mouth closed.  An adequate deterrent in that case but not DQing the fish.  Something harsh like 1inch for a crappie, 3 inches for a WSB, etc.

  Why no point deduction?  For the same reason.  There is no black and white way to determine what a fair point deduction would be.  But what is fair really?  If you submit a picture that doesn't adhere to the rules well boo on you, your fish is DQ'd.  That's your fault and no one else's.  Seems fair enough to me.

I say this with the utmost respect, but that is BS.
If the committee can make an objective decision about whether "a fish's mouth is closed enough" then they can objectively determine an appropriate measurement for the fish.
For example, if someone enters a 20" LMB with its mouth agape then it should probably be adjusted to 19.5" ...instead of disqualifying the fish entirely. This seems completely reasonable to me. And I bet everybody participating would vote for point-deductions over disqualification. 
But before someone complains that it would take too much time for committee members to handle something like this...then make me the committee and I'll personally do it.

Sorry you feel that way Pat.  Having done this for many years now, I assure you that it isn't as easy as you may think it is.  We've had mouth shut with penalty.  We've had mouth slightly ajar.  While both worked for the most part, both were also far from ideal.  Both led to many complaints no matter what we did.

You make the statement that "it should probably be adjusted to 19.5".  Why?  Why not 19"?  19.25"?  Why did my fish get adjusted to 19" and your fish got adjusted to 19.5".  See where this goes ...

-Allen

Sounds pretty clear to me. I'm sure they are tired of the bickering......

I question the need for changing from the old standard. The real problem was never the fish mouths it was the contestants mouths & that has been addressed by Rule #12. As long as Rule #12 is enforced I think the old standard, 'natural position', would work just fine. Pat made a very good point. If anything the new standard sounds like it will create much more work for the judges.

If enough contestants get their fish DQed due to the new standard it could greatly reduce participation. New people will just quit playing after they get one fish DQed. I think just this thread will be enough to scare away many. There's nothing worse than getting a fish DQed.

I question the need for changing from the old standard. The real problem was never the fish mouths it was the contestants mouths & that has been addressed by Rule #12. As long as Rule #12 is enforced I think the old standard, 'natural position', would work just fine. Pat made a very good point. If anything the new standard sounds like it will create much more work for the judges.

If enough contestants get their fish DQed due to the new standard it could greatly reduce participation. New people will just quit playing after they get one fish DQed. I think just this thread will be enough to scare away many. There's nothing worse than getting a fish DQed.

Ummm .. .the old standard was mouth shut.   

-Allen

As an outsider (non-participant) to the AOTY [which some of you state should not have an opinion in any AOTY matters], it seems like a lot of the fun is being taken out of this with controversy over open/shut, species added/removed, photo's, etc...  I understand it can come down a matter of fractional-inches.  I don't envy the decisions that have to be made by the moderators so I tip my hat to you, the moderators.  Let's just keep the contest lite hearted fun.  IMHO

I think just this thread will be enough to scare away many. There's nothing worse than getting a fish DQed.

i'm scared as hell!!     this is just fishing fellas, take a chill-pill,
take a pic, follow the rules, maybe be a winner at the end.

WE all know fish dont always cooperate with anglers and the position of their mouths is their choice. . However I think once you've done it right a few times you have a pretty good idea of what is and is not acceptable. If your in Question then keep taking pictures and photographing. Dip your fish back in the water, let it breath and take a break from the Through. When you and your fish are ready get it back on, and start taking more photos.I haven't taken perfect Photos. This is all just IMO but I really do think it helps. Lets try not to let the negativity out weigh what its all about. Go Have FUN!

I've said my peace.  Rule #12 is now in effect.  Any more complaints?  Take it to PM.

 

-Allen