Attn: KzReelRods

Hey I was hoping for your input I want to build my first rod  with A cal star 270-7 blank  7' 12-30#.
I want to be able to get maximum casting distance with a flylined live bait on 20 or 25#. 

I was wondering if you think this would be a candidate for spiral wrapping?  Does it effect casting?
If so how do you determin the guide placement and orientation?

Yes... this would be a good candidate for spiral wrapping.   Spiral wrapping, when done properly, does not affect casting performance.  I've tested this many times.

Determining guide placement... that's a bit more involved.  I'll shoot you a message tonight to give you the principles involved.

Erik

Hey Erik,

Would you mind shooting me a copy of that info on guide placement for spiral wrapping?

Thanks in advance.

Randy

OK... here's what I replied to Goldenarrow.

There are several methods that people have for placing guides for a spiral wrap.  I'll outline two methods here... one which is really easy... the other which is more involved but which I prefer. 

Here's the more involved method...

Principles:
1. The first 180 degree guide should be near the “lock up point” of the blank… that is the point where when the blank is flexed 90 degrees, the blank stops flexing and is mostly straight from the butt.  On some rods this might be a wide area... on some others it'll be over only a very short distance.  Basically if you get too far ahead of the lock up point, you have trouble meeting criteria number 2.  For this reason, the closer the lockup point is to the butt, the more difficulty you have setting up the spiral guide placement.

2. The line should only hit the top or bottom of any given guide ring when the rod is flexed and loaded.

3. When the line is at either side of the reel spool, it should not ride up on the side of the butt guide ring.  Moving the butt guide forward will reduce the amount of side-to-side travel it sees as the line crosses the reel spool.  Also, a larger ring size will help to accomodate a wider spool.  Offsetting the butt guide by as much as 20 degrees sometimes helps with keeping the line centered in the butt guide ring.

4.  The butt guide should be tall enough so that the line doesn’t hit your hand when the rod is loaded. 

5.  The line should take the straightest (or smoothest) possible path through the transition guides. 

I usually start by placing my first 180 degree guide near the lock up point, then rough placing my guides out to the tip.  Then I work on the transition.  Once I have the transition figured out, I'll fine tune everything and do stress distribution and casting tests to confirm it's all good.  I'll document everything very closely as well. 

Here is the guide placement that I do on Pac Bay XG70L’s, which are 7 foot fast action live bait rods… this might provide a good starting point you and you can make adjustments from there.  I used AmTak Titans (NIC) and a Fuji ICMNST tip which is titanium coated stainless with an SiC ring. 

Distance starts from tip to butt.

Tip        ICMNST 10/7     0 cm
1          NIC8                 12 cm               180 deg
2          NIC8                 15 cm               180 deg
3          NIC8                 15 cm               180 deg
4          NIC8                 15.1cm             180 deg
5          NIC8                 15.1cm             180 deg
6          NIC8                 15.6 cm            100 deg
7          NIC10               15.1 cm            45 deg
8          NIC20               17.4 cm            15 deg


The second method has been coined the "bumper spiral" method. 

Basically, it involves setting up your guide placement in a conventional "guides on top" orientation and conducting your stress distribution tests to ensure proper guide placement.   Then you flip over all but the first two guides to 180 degrees.  The second guide you turn to 90 degrees... this is your "bumper guide".  For the bumper guide you want to use the lowest frame guide possible so that the line takes the straghtest possible path to the tip.  This may mean going down to a size 8 or size 7 guide for the "bumper guide".  It's purpose is to simply keep the line from touching the blank.

Finally, if you're using a non-levelwind reel, I'd recommend spiraling toward your free hand (away from the crank) so that the line naturally travels toward your thumb when reeling.  This way you only have to push with your thumb to guide the line on the reel and it will automatically work your way back toward your thumb. 

For levelwinds, I prefer to spiral toward the crank so that when you lay the rod down on it's side, you aren't laying it on the tranition guides.

Let me know if you have any more questions... lots of information here.  Basically you'll just have to experiment until you get a setup that looks right to you.  Each blank is different and will require a bit of tweaking to get it right.

Erik

Great info, Erik.  Thank you.

Have you ever considered conducting rod building seminars?  I'll bet I'm not the only one who'd be willing to pay money for  some expert instruction.

Randy

I've considererd it and actually put together an outline once.  Never really materialized.  I've been so busy lately that I haven't had time to think about it. 

If there is enough interest, I'd consider doing it sometime.  I could also offer a pretty good deal on components as well as a basic equipment starter kit to get people started.

Erik

You have interest here, my man   

Pat's having way too much fun watching me fumble with my first home brew rod.  She's letting me make all the mistakes before she starts on hers.  Do this thing, and I can guarantee you two seats filled. 

Randy

Yes!.... Erik, you have my interest too.  It sure would be a great sense of accomplishment if I could build and wrap my first rod... although I know it wouldn't be as nice and perfect as you building it for me.

Any thoughts about putting a small rod building seminar together if you had the time?  (I recall some talk about this in the past)
If so, how long would it take to do it right?
Any general idea on material costs?

I'll check my notes when I get home and post some information about time, costs, etc. this weekend.  I'd love to see you guys start building your own rods... it really does add another layer of satisfaction to this whole thing.

One thing that would be nice is if anyone has a good idea for a place to hold the class somewhere in the immediate Bay Area... I'm guessing it would be less than ideal for folks to travel all the way to Santa Rosa for it.  Community centers?  Folks with Big Garages?  ???

Erik

Does it need to be indoors? I have a decent size backyard we could use.

My buddy has access to a Gym (junior high school) in HMB. Give me a date and time and I'll see if I can book it.

Kz,
 I like the design of your spiral wrap as I am a dedicated spincaster reel user!
 What are the requirements you need to build a rod for someone as I would like to possibly purchase one if I can.
 Would be using for ocean( ling, rockfish, flounders etc...)
 thanks for any info!

Kz,
 I like the design of your spiral wrap as I am a dedicated spincaster reel user!
 What are the requirements you need to build a rod for someone as I would like to possibly purchase one if I can.
 Would be using for ocean( ling, rockfish, flounders etc...)
 thanks for any info!

If you go to my website (www.kzreelrods.com) , there is a quote request form.  Start with the information in that form, then we can talk more in detail.

Thanks,

Erik

One thing that would be nice is if anyone has a good idea for a place to hold the class somewhere in the immediate Bay Area... I'm guessing it would be less than ideal for folks to travel all the way to Santa Rosa for it.  Community centers?  Folks with Big Garages?  ???

Erik I would love to take the class and I could most likely arrange for the use of warehouse or salesroom with long tables which would give us lots of room, right around the corner from you on Dutton Ave. Have a big BBQ and picnic tables.

"If you show them how to build it they will come"