Ideal kayak rod for big fish

And ... if I hold the rod butt on my right side with the tip on the opposite side, that's also good since we have some forces balancing each other out.

-Allen

Exactly! 
The only "torque" in this whole scenario is when the rod acts as a lever, imparting force to you sitting in the boat, which is translated into torque on the boat's center of gravity, leading to instability.

If you're feeling unstable you can point the rod at the fish and some of the force is temporarily reduced, or use a shorter/more flexible rod to reduce the amount of force imparted through the rod to you (and then to the boat), or bring the rod tip closer to the boat's center of gravity for a temporary reduction in torque, or move the rod further toward the opposite side from the rod tip to temporarily balance the forces.

The only way to permanently reduce the torque on the boat is to reduce the force you're imparting to the boat, which you're receiving from the rod, which is a result of your drag setting.

Unless your rod is sitting in a rod holder the force applied to you is still important because that force is then imparted to the boat causing instability. That's why I keep talking about the force applied to the angler, because ultimately, that is the force that gets applied to the boat.

It's the Law of the Conservation of Energy. Once force (energy) is imparted to the rod and then the angler it has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is the boat. As long as you have that rod in your hand, you are the critical connection between the rod and the boat. How you deal with receiving that energy determines what happens to the boat. So, the less energy you receive from the rod, the easier it should be for you to deal with before that energy is transfered to the boat.

So based on what we have been talking about all day, it appears to me that the best way to get more pressure on the fish without increasing the force to you (and the boat) is by using a shorter, more flexible rod.

I think we're there! 

That's why I keep talking about the force applied to the angler, because ultimately, that is the force that gets applied to the boat.

Well, I still think it matters where that force is as evidenced by holding the rod to the left of the right, closer or farther.  That location of that force still translates to a torque on a fixed point of the boat.  The point being that that fixed point is the only thing that stayed fixed and it's not the force on that point, it's the torque.   But no matter ... we've reached the end of the useful part of this discussion, right?     We're probably trying to say the same thing.

So based on what we have been talking about all day, it appears to me that the best way to get more pressure on the fish without increasing the force to you (and the boat) is by using a shorter, more flexible rod.

I'm still struggling with how flexible.  While flexible makes for a good shock absorber, it goes both ways.  It absorbs the force the fish wants to put on me, but it also absorbs the force I want to put on the fish.  If I'm concerned about length of rod and making it shorted when it bends ... well, shouldn't I just make the rod shorter.  Anyways, I'm leaning towards moderate to fast action, but certainly not full on fast or extra fast, and certainly not full on slow.

-Allen

That's why I keep talking about the force applied to the angler, because ultimately, that is the force that gets applied to the boat.

Well, I still think it matters where that force is as evidenced by holding the rod to the left of the right, closer or farther.  That location of that force still translates to a torque on a fixed point of the boat.  The point being that that fixed point is the only thing that stayed fixed and it's not the force on that point, it's the torque.   But no matter ... we've reached the end of the useful part of this discussion, right?     We're probably trying to say the same thing.

I think we are saying the same thing. How you hold the rod is what I'm talking about when I say "how you deal with the energy you receive from the rod." So, if you use a rod that gives you less energy from the fish then you have less of these rod holding maneuvers to go through. Or, if you figured out the perfect way to hold the rod that lets you deal with more energy AND you are using a rod that gives you less energy, then you can increase your drag accordingly.

As far as how flexible? I agree it's a difficult answer involving trade-offs between fish fighting ability and maximum drag setting. More flexible + shorter=more drag, but is more drag worth the fish fighting trade offs?

Also, in terms of drag settings only, shorter and stiffer is the same as longer and flexible. Az Kunz and I were discussing, short and flexible yield the most drag capability, but who knows how that would translate into fighting a fish?

If I'm concerned about length of rod and making it shorted when it bends ... well, shouldn't I just make the rod shorter.  Anyways, I'm leaning towards moderate to fast action, but certainly not full on fast or extra fast, and certainly not full on slow.

You need to find the sweet spot between rod length, action, and power. 

Shock absorption has value in your scenario because it lends itself to being a forgiving rod.  When you are buttoned down and on the edge of what is possible from a kayak, some forgiveness is handy.

That Seeker CTS55XH for example is labeled as a "fast" action, but when fully loaded, it will bend all the way to the grips... so the term "fast" is relative to some extent. 

You just need to go fondle some blanks now to get an idea of where that sweet spot is.

EK

For kayak ulna fishing I use a Calstar 655H with an Avet Pro EX 2 speed or Newell 540. The grahiters can put more pressure on big fish but are less forgiving. The 655 is an all e glass narrow diameter rod and has a forgiving bend. I would go with all roller guides. I  wouldn't go less than 5.5' if you are fishing spectra because you want to keep the line from cutting your hull.
 

For kayak ulna fishing I use a Calstar 655H with an Avet Pro EX 2 speed or Newell 540. The grahiters can put more pressure on big fish but are less forgiving. The 655 is an all e glass narrow diameter rod and has a forgiving bend. I would go with all roller guides. I  wouldn't go less than 5.5' if you are fishing spectra because you want to keep the line from cutting your hull.
 

Is the 660H similar to the 655H, just a tad longer?  I got a couple of those with RS/RT.  Also have an all roller 655XH, but that rod but that rod is just starting to feel on the heavy side to work off a kayak all day.  How would you build one of these rods if you wanted to keep it on the lighter weight side?

-Allen

Of course the WC-660H-RS/RT Trolling/bait setup is not quite right for jamming under my arm.  It has a shorter rear butt, maybe 2 inches too short.  Probably need a more conventional casting butt section like the WC-660H-C or WC-655H-C.

-Allen

I'm still struggling with how flexible.  While flexible makes for a good shock absorber, it goes both ways.  It absorbs the force the fish wants to put on me, but it also absorbs the force I want to put on the fish.  If I'm concerned about length of rod and making it shorted when it bends ... well, shouldn't I just make the rod shorter.  Anyways, I'm leaning towards moderate to fast action, but certainly not full on fast or extra fast, and certainly not full on slow.

I'm not tryin to read all the math and stuffs but here's my 2....epic back and forth battle = force on you, force on the fish, force on the spectra = force on the hook and the hole you put in its mouth = bye bye fishy.  All those getting em out of the rocks, need the most backbone I can get problems can be negated by good technique (set hook, short stroke crank repeat) once they're turned the fish are headshakin, goin up/down/left/right widening the hole you just put in its lip.  I've lost infinitely more fish in the water column than I have from getting holed and I've always preferred moderate to slow action rods for fighting fish.

 

 

I'm not tryin to read all the math and stuffs but here's my 2....epic back and forth battle = force on you, force on the fish, force on the spectra = force on the hook and the hole you put in its mouth = bye bye fishy.  All those getting em out of the rocks, need the most backbone I can get problems can be negated by good technique (set hook, short stroke crank repeat) once they're turned the fish are headshakin, goin up/down/left/right widening the hole you just put in its lip.  I've lost infinitely more fish in the water column than I have from getting holed and I've always preferred moderate to slow action rods for fighting fish.

Back to square 1 ...

I can tell you that "short stroke crank repeat" didn't work, BTDT.  I still need more drag.  There is a point where technique still can't overcome lack of power ... if I was only able to get 2# of drag, the point would be obviously clear.

-Allen

Handline and a saddlehorn.

+ large muscular fish= kayak submarine? 

The 660 is 6" longer than the 655. here are some ways to get a lighter tuna stick with a forgiving bend...

1. Start with a longer glass graphite rod like a Calstar GF 760L and cut 6" off the butt to make a 5'5" rod.
2. Use aluminum rollers or titanium ring guides.

Short rods feel much lighter because of the physics and less guides. My 655 feels pretty light and is all AFCO rollers. the reel is what adds a lot of weight. Ulua are the beasts of the bottom and I have seen them rock 80 pound rigs so why take a knife to a gun fight?

Short rods feel much lighter because of the physics and less guides. My 655 feels pretty light and is all AFCO rollers. the reel is what adds a lot of weight. Ulua are the beasts of the bottom and I have seen them rock 80 pound rigs so why take a knife to a gun fight?

Yeah, you're right.  The reel is the heavy part.

I'm convinced one can't fish 80# rigs from kayaks, or at least can't effectively get high enough drag for a long enough sustained time.  So getting the most out of a 50# rig is what I'm resigned to.  Convince me otherwise please.   

-Allen

A rod rated 30-80# like the GF 760 L is meant to be fished with 40-50# line. If you are fishing ulna, most people use 50# or higher. If you use spectra mainline with a short mono leader, you can break 40# mono from a yak. I would ask Bluewater Jon or Jim Sammons what they use. From the pictures, looks like 4/0 size or bigger.

A rod rated 30-80# like the GF 760 L is meant to be fished with 40-50# line. If you are fishing ulna, most people use 50# or higher. If you use spectra mainline with a short mono leader, you can break 40# mono from a yak. I would ask Bluewater Jon or Jim Sammons what they use. From the pictures, looks like 4/0 size or bigger.

Can you break 40# from a yak at the end of a rod?  I can't.  I can barely break it wrapped around a club pulling straight up from my hip, and even then it is iffy.

A 4/0 isn't a 80# reel.

Regardless, I think we're thinking similarly here, go as big as you are comfortable with.  I'm just not comfortable with 80# off a kayak.

-Allen

I'm useless for math and equations so my only useful contribution to this conversation can be the photo below w/ my "big fish rod". This is with a 30# ling on just at the point in the fight when I was putting the screws in so the rod was at it's max for this fish. The rod is a graphite/glass 6' blue water jigging rod I brought back from Japan named the "Fish Finder". From what I remember it was made for vertical pelagic jigging for tuna, trevally, amberjack etc.. It's a little more whippy in the tip (top 6"-8" or so) than other rods I use for rockfishing but under this load was nice to have a little forgiveness like KZ was saying. It has a long rod butt that that's easy to tuck under your arm and anchor the rod when lifting. I haven't had many fish on this rod but so far I don't think I'd change anything.

Z