Another ethics thread.. this time salmon

I posted a question about CA salmon regs in a thread about someone's salmon report. I wasn't trying to get on anyone's case but somehow to some people it turned out that way. I mentioned it wasn't the place for talking about that so signed out as quickly as I could. When a similar comment popped up in a bass thread X squid did something similar and he was smart enough to create a thread about it. In that thread people were alluding to how I crapped on someone's report. Like I said, that wasn't my intention. What I'm saying in this thread was.

In my original post I said I thought it was incredible that the CADFG opened retention of native salmon for the season. Since the NorCal salmon had gone though so much in the last few years I thought that even if CA had a season it'd be short and hatchery fish only.

I was really surprised that the regs included native fish. Since the regs say it's ok to keep them that's your right. I won't dispute that. My thoughts were that it's good to release native fish so that the already damaged run wouldn't be hurt anymore because of us. I know that there's a lot of culprits as to why the salmon runs have dwindled, and sport fishing is a small reason, but to continue killing native fish can't be helping. The whole theory of "F it it's already messed up so who cares" doesn't really fly with me. There's plenty of hatchery fish out there that will hurt spawning grounds if they get there so why not go after them exclusively? It's of great importance to get those fish out of the water so I take it as a personal challenge. Barbless hooks are part of the regs so releasing fish is easy enough w/o touching the fish. When I catch a salmon and realize it's got a rudder (adipose fin) all I have to do is give the fish a little slack and it's off. Dehooker's also work really well.

So that's my rant. Here's to hoping this is an informative discussion w/ respect.

Z

i haven't fished for either, but can you post a pic of the difference of the two? I'm interested in being able to tell the difference.

Good topic, Z. Hopefully people can keep it civil--there's been a lot of tension on here lately and it sucks.

The problem with your idea is that is makes too much sense for the DFG to implement lol. It would also require them to employ some forward-thinking [outside the box] because this isn't something that they have utilized before (at least, not in the context of ocean salmon). As far as I know, the DFG has never asked anglers to release native chinook in the ocean.
It's a personal choice since it is legal. To each his own. If I get one boatside in my yak, I will keep it. But it's not because I feel like "F' it, it's already messed up." Maybe some feel that way, but I'd wager that most of NCKA doesn't feel that way.
Thanks Z.
Much respect,
Pat

I don't believe California clips the adipose fins on its hatchery salmon like they do in Oregon and Washington.  Because of that there isn't a visible difference (see porky's reply).   I'm also not so sure how much of the Sacramento run is actually native to begin with.

Brian

I don't believe California clips the adipose fins on its hatchery salmon like they do in Oregon and Washington. 

from my understanding, they clip about 1/4 to 1/2 of all hatchery fish before release.  so in this case, Z would be wondering why CA has decided NOT to clip all fish like our friends up north.   For that I have no answer.

Good topic Z...as I'm a big salmon fan and I kill 'em cause I love to eat 'em. I never had a problem keeping an ocean caught salmon and to tell you the truth, I never even bothered to check if the one's I caught in the past were natives or hatchery. But I have never fished for a salmon that has already entered the river system to spawn  - And I never will. It's a peronal choice that I have made. I know many of our respectable members have fished for them in the rivers but I don't look down at them for doing so. If fact, most of 'em I consider my very good friends. Again, it's a choice one makes.

On another note....I always believed that a better salmon rule would be this: catch your FIRST two fish, regardless of what size it is and go home. I've seen an undersized salmon get released from a party boat only to be snacked upon by a sealion I'm no fish expert, but I can see a salmon dazed and confused after spending sometime in a net and then flopping around some one's deck and then getting thrown back into the sea while a sea lion awaits. That caught and released salmon never had a chance .

Circle hooks....and fish not getting gut hooked? Not always the case  

If they are clipping just a proportion of the fish, it's probably just to help with estimating returning run size.  There's no need to clip them all (which is expensive and time consuming) when simple math can be used instead.

I've seen an undersized salmon get released from a party boat only to be snacked upon by a sealion I'm no fish expert, but I can see a salmon dazed and confused after spending sometime in a net and then flopping around some one's deck and then getting thrown back into the sea while a sea lion awaits.

yup, happens all the time.  I've been reading similar things on Coastside, where they stated that the best way would be to "shake" them off at the boat, which is true of course.  

However, the problem is that when you have those borderline fish, the customer wants the deckhand/captain to measure it, regardless of whether the deckhand knows if it is legal or not.  If you're a deckhand, you comply with your customer's wishes if you want any sort of tip or repeat business.  after netting the fish, handling it, measuring it, it's chances of survival are much lower.  

This is going to be even more prevalent with the revised rules and legal being 24"...

i also don't like boat limits but i guess those make sense in some ways...

Mooch, wait until Howard takes you to the Herring Cove fishery.  You'll be fishing salmon that are staging at the mouth of a creek to spawn.  Don't worry, they are all excess capacity that the hatchery won't use.  The fishery even allows snagging.  That's another hot button for "salmon ethics".

Regarding fishing salmon that are on their way to spawning, consider the following.  In WA, many of the fisheries are terminal areas fisheries near the estuary and mouths of rivers.  It is purposefully done this way to be able to selectively target the healthy stocks.  The unhealthy rivers are closed near their mouths.  Mixed stock ocean fisheries are becoming fewer and fewer due to impacts on threatened runs.

Regarding keeping the first caught.  All for it.  Again in WA, there are many cases of anglers culling 10's of wild fish before they catch a keeper hatchery fish.  I'm pretty sure they are having a larger impact on the wild fish than just keeping one and calling it a day.  How about rockfish?  You support that too?  I do.   But imagine the stringers of gophers and being off the water by 9AM.

-Allen

The commercial season will be very limited and targeting Klamath fish. Except for a very small season down here. The sport guys while taking some fish will hopefully not be feeding the entire neighborhoods as before. I will keep 2 or 3 fish possibly if and thats a big IF this week. When my pal who has a sockeye comm.boat in Iggegik comes back in late July I will have reds coming out of my , well, he can bring a 100 pounds on the flight.

I don't fish for salmon, so I will watch how this thread goes and learn.  Thanks Zee.

HB

I've never caught a Salmon and don't know a whole lot about them...looking forward to learning from this thread and this site and using that information to help me make my own decision about what to do if I ever get one by the side of the boat.

Thank you for starting this thread and for your concerns...hope that the discussion stays respectful...
 
Sincerely,

Jim

Good topic, Z. Hopefully people can keep it civil--there's been a lot of tension on here lately and it sucks.

The problem with your idea is that is makes too much sense for the DFG to implement lol. It would also require them to employ some forward-thinking [outside the box] because this isn't something that they have utilized before (at least, not in the context of ocean salmon). As far as I know, the DFG has never asked anglers to release native chinook in the ocean.
It's a personal choice since it is legal. To each his own. If I get one boatside in my yak, I will keep it. But it's not because I feel like "F' it, it's already messed up." Maybe some feel that way, but I'd wager that most of NCKA doesn't feel that way.
Thanks Z.
Much respect,
Pat

+1  Well said, PK. 

I think the points made here about first two fish caught and damage done culling wild fish to get to a hatchery one are valid.  This is a tough issue that is close to me.  I'm not thrilled about the season being open full bore.  I think a more limited season would've been more reasonable.  Unfortunately, I believe that even with the publicity and obvious concern around this issue there will still be "men" who will fish as much as they are legally allowed, keep as much as they are legally allowed, and feel no remorse about it.  To give us an opportunity to fish is the great part, but opening it up to a point where it's vulnerable to gamehogs seems unwise.  I grew up fishing for salmon with my Dad out of Humboldt Bay.  Big swells going by in a little dory.  I may never fully understand what draws me back out there to seek this very beautiful fish in the ocean stage of its incredible life, but I do clearly recognize that I am drawn.  I'm sorry, Z, that what I feel compelled to do regarding taking a wild salmon in the ocean is in contrast to how you feel, because, paradoxically, I totally support the spirit of what you're saying.  For me, as an individual, I feel that I can both harvest a wild salmon in the ocean and live in a way that supports the restoration of wild salmon.

Much respect from me too, Z. 

Eric

i dont fish salmon in the rivers but i will keep and eat every legal salmon i can get my greasy, grimey, salty, little paws on. Which, after 50-60 hours of trolling in my kayak, will maybe be 1 or 2 fish. So who has a problem with that?
Everybody has different ethics. Often because of the way or place we were raised. That is part of what makes us individuals. I believe it is important to respect eachothers individuality and ethics even if we dissagree with them. In addition, it is even more important that people don't try to impose their own personal ethical beliefs on others!! That is rude!! It is the same thing as someone trying to cram their religion down your throat. Nobody should tolerate that!!

i hate Salmon as much as IhateCRAB!  unless they come smoked and in little pieces,,,,i won't be fishing for them AT ALL!
Good subject though Z!!   someone has got to learn something from this disscusion.