AOTY rule questions

On the rainbows v.s. steelhead thing... I believe there is a genetic difference between the two.  

It is my understanding that the landlocked steelhead in lake sonoma are genetically steelhead... not rainbow trout.  

BSteves may be able to clear that up some more.

Actually,gentic studies on native populations of steelhead and rainbows in the same river systems in British Columbia and Kamchatka show larger genetic difference between river systems than between steelhead and rainbows from within the same river systems.  

Here's an abstract of one such paper...

Margaret F. Docker1  and Daniel D. Heath1

(1)    Great Lakes Institute for Environmental Research, University of Windsor, 401 Sunset Avenue, Windsor, Ontario, N9B 3P4, Canada
Abstract  Sympatrically occurring steelhead and rainbowtrout (n = 100) were collected from fiveriver systems in British Columbia, Canada, and1300 bp from the mitochondrial genome and 270bp of the nuclear growth hormone 2 gene weresequenced to determine if the two forms aregenetically differentiated. ND3 and D-loopsequence differences produced nine haplotypeswhile two length variants of the GH2 intron Dwere present. In one river system, steelheadand rainbow were genetically divergent based onmtDNA data but overall, no consistent geneticdifference between life history types wasfound. Rather, genetic differences wereassociated with geography, suggesting thatsteelhead and rainbow trout are polyphyleticand the result of parallel evolution ratherthan members of two distinct lineages.
keywords:
genetic differentiation - life history types - mitochondrial DNA -  Oncorhynchus mykiss  - steelhead

I think we have to as the DFG does with the Lake Sonoma steelhead and treat them as trout.  
 

The spirit of AOTY would suggest that you land the fish from the kayak.  However, it's pretty hard to prove whether you or not you landed a fish from a kayak unless you had a witness.  If you needed to pull over and land from shore, there's certainly nothing stating you couldn't land the fish from a banked kayak.  Anyway, this is just the sort of rule that needs some clarification by the AOTY committee.

Brian

The rule says that fish must be "caught" from a kayak.  In my view, a fish isn't "caught" until it is hooked, fought, and subdued / landed by the angler.  I would be opposed to entering fish that were hooked from kayak but fought and/or landed while standing on shore.  Once the fish is landed/subdued, getting out of the kayak is a moot point.  I don't make the rules, but that's my view. 

An opposite analogy would be where an angler hooks a fish from shore while shore fishing, and then quickly gets into and launches the kayak to fight and land the fish from the kayak.  I don't think anyone would say that meets the meaning of "caught" from a kayak either.  Why would the opposite be OK? 

EK

Agree with Kunz all the way here.

And, as for "hard to prove" you landed the fish from the yak...  Get a camera mount!   

I think we need to keep the "Caught as Gray Area" just to help the fish. If you get a measurement and a photo it's caught.

When I'm fishing for Steelies if I'm anchored in a pool and I hook a Native fish or any fish I'm not going to keep I pull anchor lead the fish to the shallows which is not easy to control the yak and a Steelie and the current. While still in the yak I side him up till he hits bottom then jump out try and get a measurement or photo then take the hook out and revive. I won't net or take out of the water an adult fish that still has a long way to go on his journey. If you get real technical about it some of the Sturgeon that were entered were not brought into the boat so are they really caught. 99.9% of the time it's harder to get to shore to land the fish than it would be out of the yak.  So if I pull my kayak up on a gravel bar or dock for that matter as long as I am sitting in it that's good,?does it say anywhere that it even has to be in the water?????????? I'm just thinking about the fish.

Sorry to be such a beoch but I got home about 2 hrs ago and I saw 3 steelies (1 was big over 15lb) sitting in the tail of the pool by my house and they wouldn't touch anything  . Just had to vent a little before I go down and try again.

Seriously, how many of us have landed a steelhead from a kayak? All the way through? If you are going to release the fish unharmed are you kidding me to say that you cant come to the shore near the end of the fight, coax the fish up on the gravel while out of your kayak to remove the hook, take a pic and let it go? This is breaking this whole AOTY thing down to a micromaneged unfun whining piece of work. It takes much skill to hook first of all any steelhead, then fight it form a moving kayak in current, if you are say boondogging , control the fish on a barbless hook, paddle with one hand to control the craft, land it in your kayak without touching lets say the gills in any fashion and for all this you now get one point less per inch than a mutant rubbed raw tail trout caught on a barbed treble hook with some GD powerbait. This is crazy!

I agree with mike and craig, they make good arguments. Keep it gray. A person can decide whether they "caught" the fish from a kayak or not and the honor system would suffice in this area

Craig definitely has a good point.  But I also understand the desire to give AOTY a broader appeal.

If it were up for discussion/vote then why not let the previous years' Top 10 vote on it?

But if it's not open for discussion I'm cool with that too.

I refuse to get worked up over a fishing contest...

Based on the NCKA members I've met over the past year I think the honor system will work just fine. I think if a member knows they couldn't have landed a fish w/o getting out of their yak we can trust him/her not to count it. If all they're doing is caring for the fish there isn't any need to penalize that. But then I'm a pretty laid back individual 

I do think, however, that these discussions are good. One suggestion I'd make is putting the "must catch w/o help" rule in the rules. I know that's the way it is by following discussions here, but when you read the rules they just say "w/o the aid of a powerboat", or something like that. I noticed one member last year was going to disqualify one of his fish because someone helped him net it. But he didn't know until Ben's sturgeon thing came up.

Maybe the committee could review what is mostly common knowledge and confirm that the rules reflect that, just as fair warning to newbs (like me)?

Ben

I agree with Eric B.  I think clear rules are good, less confusion less drama...
but I don't know the difference between taking picture on your cutting board or on the river bank...  And going fishing with your buddy and he takes the money shot, is he helping you?  use common sense and honor the system to do our best then let the judges decide the rest.

while tweaking the rule still, I have some suggestions for you, Brian.

I don't think it's easy to distinguish a 9 inch Kokanee with Chinook with a few pics...  (and I think spotted & largemouth bass might have the same problem when they're small, and also the issue of Hybridization...).  I think it's easier for you guys if we put all landlocked salmon (Kokanee, Chinook, Coho) together (maybe, drop the points to 9 pts/in).

I think the rules are pretty good right now, but if I think about anything else I'll let you know.

Good job & Thank you for your hard work!

Just a Question,
If I paid for my AOTY through paypal yesterday (Friday) but have not been added to the list, will any fish I catch tomorrow (Sunday) count?

Just a Question,
If I paid for my AOTY through paypal yesterday (Friday) but have not been added to the list, will any fish I catch tomorrow (Sunday) count?

Yes!  Good luck tomorrow E!

Michael

Thanks,
I'll post up with my conquest 

One more question,
Is there a rule about fishing ponds on private land?

One more question,
Is there a rule about fishing ponds on private land?

I believe only public water since DF&G doesn't apply to private pond, but I could be wrong 

Dfg laws apply to private ponds that connect with any public waterway.  So for those I think you would be good for sure, for others ...?

Rules don't specify public waters so it's ok. It pretty funny that everyone wants clear rules then they try and interpret them.