Busted for shore fishing at Bonita Point 8/7/09

  Well Said Shannon    

 Your Professionalism stands for itself in your demeanor on this subject manor...

 

What I'm wondering is, why couldn't they just drive slowly up to the fisherman and say, "hello, how ya doin'? BTW, we know it's not very well posted, but you're not supposed to fish over here."

  SRJ has explained the situation well...  

There are no simple interactions with law enforcement...

 What may look like a very mild mannered law abiding citizen, may very well be a serial killer...

Only SOP's ( Standard Operating Procedures ) that have been tried and true, help reduce harm and foul to both Officers and the Public...

As far As not being a real Police Officer... Please

Metro Police have back up... Quick,  in Rural Areas,  no Back up....

Pretty Much The Wild West....  

 Hats off to you  SRJ...  Mahi Mahi and other Law Enforcement on the Board...

 Stay Safe......

 

I appreciate your comments and the service you provide Shannon.

Earlier, several respondents made the suggestion that you should be able to somehow read the minds of people, know their character and intentions and assume that, in this case, they are contacting an innocuous fisherman.

This discussion reminds me of an incident I experienced in the sixties when I was working at PayLess in San Pablo.  Store security had told me to go to the storefront because they were tailing a shoplifter and intended to apprehend him once he was out the store.  When he exited, the security guard confronted him and the guy immediately bolted through the parking lot toward the freeway.  I instinctively gave chase and pursued him all the was to the chain linked fence bordering the freeway.  I had him up against the fence when the overweight guard, huffing and puffing, caught up and cuffed the guy.  After it was over the guard drew me aside and said "Never do that again!"  I was surprised, "Why?"  Because, he said, you never know who you are facing.  It may seem like a relatively minor offence, e.g. shop lifting, but you know nothing about the guy. He may be wanted, skipped parole, or made a previous vow that he would never go back to the can alive.  Someone like that may not think twice before taking you down if they are desperate to get away.  I'd never considered this angle.

So, part of what raises the potential danger level, in my view, is the capacity of the officer to do the background check.  Just because they are wardens in a park doesn't mitigate the risk.  Criminals like to fish too.

Think about the unsuspecting Oakland officer who was intending to make a routine traffic stop when, without warming, he took a fatal bullet to throat.  His partner and two more on the SWAT team would die before the guy was taken down.  If he liked to fish, and was approached by wardens, I don't think he would have taken to the said encounter lightly.

As someone who make a living trying to understand what makes people tick, and predicting future behavior, I can fully appreciate the dilemma faced by officers every day.

As for Mr. Smith...more than enough for someone like me to speculate about.

Earlier, several respondents made the suggestion that you should be able to somehow read the minds of people, know their character and intentions and assume that, in this case, they are contacting an innocuous fisherman.

I do appreciate that factor.

But in this particular case the fisherman in question was observed fishing for some time...  in broad daylight.... and he was outnumbered 2:1.

I think the bottom line is that

1) in this thread only Itsonice was there. The only "criticism" of the warden's behavior that isn't in doubt (I think <g>) is that Itsonice was left with the idea that he *wasn't* ticketed for reasons other than poor signage, which makes the whole effort kind of pointless.

2) in terms of Shannon's and Jud's perspectives neither has walked in the other's shoes as far as I know. I'm guessing, even if (maybe) poorly applied here, that Jud has a reason, personal or professional, for coming on as strongly as he did. I'm not suggesting that these wardens were overly aggressive, but we are well served by people who halt those LEOs that are. Likewise, when you look at Shannon's background it makes total good sense to take the safest route. No doubt there is an art to all of that.

Ben

EricB it does not really matter if he was fishing or not, people have gone fishing then went crazy and killed people before. Fishing does not equal totally cool mellow harmless person. It would be nice if it did, but it really does not.

  What I'm wondering is, why couldn't they just drive slowly up to the fisherman and say, "hello, how ya doin'? BTW, we know it's not very well posted, but you're not supposed to fish over here."

Exactly! It's amazing what a friendly smile and "hello" could do for both parties involved.

  What I'm wondering is, why couldn't they just drive slowly up to the fisherman and say, "hello, how ya doin'? BTW, we know it's not very well posted, but you're not supposed to fish over here."

Exactly! It's amazing what a friendly smile and "hello" could do for both parties involved.

I totally agree.....being a public servant with a pleasant personality goes a long way. Like everyone else in this world, I'd like to be treated nice and not like a thug (no matter how I look). Treat someone nice to begin with is all I'm asking. I think that's the whole issue here.....

Police CANNOT act as if citizens they confront are about to kill them.
Just......CANNOT......act.....that way.
The reality is opposite.

And within the domain of Park Enforcement....???...!!!....even less so.

CANNOT...drive up like madmen
CANNOT...put hands anywhere near a sidearm

SRJ cites a prior GGNRA murder case---girl's body in trunk---It is irrelevant.
Less than 1:1000 Golden Gate National Recreation Area cases involve serious...anything.  In fact, as contrasted with "the content of all citzen contacts"....less than 1:10,000.

Officers CANNOT go around, touching their gunbelts, cannot act roughly, when dealing with just-citizens.

CANNOT---CANNOT---CANNOT---CANNOT...the most fundamental part of professionalism is courtesy.

Yes police get shot-in-the-line-of-duty.
So do convenience store clerks.

While (particularly Metropolitan) police work is a dangerous occupation, police work DOES NOT FALL within the list of the ten most dangerous jobs.  

 
They are:

Timber Cutters  117.8 fatalies per 100,000
Fishers 71.1
Pilots and navigators 69.8  
Structural metal workers 58.2  
Drivers-sales workers 37.9  
Roofers 37  
Electrical power installers 32.5  
Farm occupations 28  
Construction laborers 27.7  
Truck drivers 25

POLICE:   21.8

Police training, equipment and proceedure are principal reasons that police work does not generate more injuries/fatalities.

But badge-heavy over-the-top conduct is expressly forbidden in all police academys and departments.

The bottom line is....officers cannot deal roughly with contacts on any PRETEXT of personal danger.

Another somewhat paradoxical but entirely understandable fact is that the very "danger-of-the-job" is in fact one of the primary frequently cited ATTRACTIONS of police work as an occupation.  Police work is not boreing.  

What's that fabulous line that Marshall Matt Dillon intoned at the introduction of every GUNSMOKE show? He said:   "It's a chancy job, and it makes a man watchful . . . and a little lonely..."  AND THAT'S ABOUT AS PERFECT A DESCRIPTION AS CAN BE MADE....except in the case of modern police, they cannot let---JUST CANNOT LET---the "chancy" nature of the job cause them to turn to cowardice and adopt badge-heavy brutal behavior(s).

PAY ATTENTION DAMMIT:

It's irrational to go into police work because it is exciting and then behave like a badge-heavy tyrant on the pretext that the job is dangerous.

Law enforcement CANNOT afford to become "an-enemy-of-the-people."
Law enforcement CANNOT afford to behave in crazy ways that are out-of-proportion with risk-realities.
Every Logical Mandate....requires police to make all their behavior(s) proportionate.

The crime of ASSAULT....is putting someone in fear.
Absent a real-viable-criminal-charge, police have no right to put a citizen in fear.
Police have no right to put a citizen in fear for "violations cases."
Police had no right make ITSONICE to sit on the ground....demeaning him...
The treatment of ITSONICE ....was absolutely    l a c e d     with badge-heavy menacing frightening unnecessary demeaning conduct.

The CORRECT Police Procedure in ITSONICE's case was this:

Officer stops his approach to ITSONICE at 8-feet:

"Sir!    
"Please put down your tackle box and your rod.
"Get out your identification.
"I am going to cite you for entering a closed area."

No gunbelt touching....no badge-heavy "drive-up"....NOT approaching ITSONICE in a jack-booted way....NOT prefacing contact with
ITSONICE with the arrogant and simultaneous stupidly-useless "We've Been Watching You..!!.."

Subsequent civil conversation-----could then negotiate its way to relelase-with-warning....or...not.

====================================================

I am no police hater --- but I did work for seven years as "A Police-Officer-of-Police-Officers."

I worked 7-years as THE OREGONIAN'S (Portland,OR) police reporter while obtaining an engineering degree.  My/The Paper's office was in the (old) police building at 209 SW Oak....I covered police and courts.

In my tenure I was personally responsible for the termination of three municipal court judges,  JJ Labadie for delilitating old age;  Edmund Jordan for cruelty to misdemeanant vagrants in his morning dock;  Arron Brown for persistantly mis-applying the Law.    I was responsible for disbarment of a dep. city attorney for prejudicial handling of a tavern-keepers license.

My reports caused four police officers to be fired, all separate incidents.   One officer---for deliberately turning on the lawn sprinklers of the Portland Fire Bureau
because he wanted to enjoy the sight of thirty three old-down-and-out-drunks who were catching a few rays of sunshine on that lawn....jump out of their sleep and run to the perimiter sidewalk.

I do see things----as a police officer sees them.
My function then and my habit now...is to see Police Officers...AS a police officer ,looking at correct and incorrect police function.

A police officer, Doyle Souders, taught me something:   That you can take a "subject"...any "subject"...you can address him and treat that
subject in just such a way that even if he is a Casper Milquetoast personality, you can excite such anger (by your behavior) and such outrage
and such personal hatred (for you-yourself) that-----you can almosst guarantee----that this subject will "offer conduct" to you which you can
define as Assault-Of-A-Police-Officer....thus giving you CAUSE to take him down for a felony.    

Doyle Souders taught me....that you can treat a man one way and he will ASSENT to his arrest.
Doyle Souders taught me....that you can treat an arrestee another way and he'll offer conduct that lets you kill him.

So TELL ME.....yeah....you just try to tell me...about Badge Heavy.

I know "Badge Heavy."

There is pin-headed Badge Heavy
There is race-hatred Badge Heavy
There is "cowardice" Badge Heavy---you see it in female officers who are frightened of their shadow.
There is the Badge Heavy sadist who gets that certain lift from having that badge and that power and that gun.

Takes all kinds to make a world.

==============================================

A final word(s)  ((Judd Smith NEVER writes   o n e    word))   ---this:  about police training films.
Police training films breed police fear.
Police fear breeds police misconduct.

And the thing is......it's irrational.
Here's the deal:

Training films are a very profitable business.
OK you are going to produce a police training film.
For One Thing:  It's gotta be scarier...than the last film the cops saw.
You draw up your "scene"...it has cars, darkness, loose clothing, and always:  Starting with an innocuous "stop."
You count your "roles" and you hire your actors-----for actors you hire gymnasts and ballet-dancers
You set up the props and run your actors through the action against a stopwatch.  That "TIME" is the benchmark.
Now you run the same action again and again always for "time."
You scream at your people...you organize re-prize runs...the aim is always to shorten the "time."
Your actors...organize and optimize...every motion.  Every motion.  
Weapons are organized-into-clothing....it's optimize...optimize...optimize...and shorten that "time."
Finally you have a choreography....that's lightening fast and scary to watch.......
But it's been optimized to the point that it no longer depicts any real-scene reality.
What happens is terrifying....the cops get all shot up....the whole thing....screaming speed...

The training academys buy it....departments buy it.....police see it....god it goes down like lightening.

An officer who sees that film --- and who does not intuit that "something is wrong...shit...this happens just all to fast and all too perfectly"  ----  The officer who leaves the viewing room thinking that:  "This is reality
and good God...I don't see how a guy can defend against stuff likethat."  ---  That officer is going to be a frightened officer.

Now a Frightened Officer is going to talk excitedly about how dangerous police work is.
A Frightened Officer is going to tell you about how a guy who uses a prohibited beach can be carrying an air-cooled .30
An officer whose seen too many Training Films will readily adopt irrational views of crime-in-America and the DANGER of even being a Park Policeman.
A officer-made-coward...well...here's somethingto chew on:

Most fundamental rule about FEAR:
FEAR is the mother of HATE
If I fear you, the sum of my fear translates to hate.
Now if an OFFICER is AFRAID of citizens.....???.....
Well the sum-total of his behavior toward them is going to feel very much like hatred.

And then next in line:
Fear feeds Fear
Hatred feeds more fear and ... your "subject" can read it off your body language...like it was written in orange flourescent.

So:   Evaluating the conduct of those officers who approached OHSONICE...   There's no question these men are not suited to their work.
Evaluating SRJ's knee-jerk defense of those men ..... an endorsement ... of men who are not suited to their work.

As a former Police-officer-of-police ..... and I still have the brittle eyes and sharp insights  ....  well.....

Judd Smith
1589 Campus Drive
Berkeley, CA  94708
[email protected]

By the way----I never have been perfectly comfortable with people who sign themselves with "handles"....and I never did visit
the New Orleans "Marti Gras" because I don't feel perfectly comfortable with people who wear masks.

It's just me, I guess.




p

Hey jwsmith, You need to relax, man. I'll bet that I'd agree with most of your post there, but geez, I don't have that kind of time. It's like the folks that block the entire road with their peaceful protest to further a cause that I'm down with. If you block the road long enough, I'll be late for work. Then I'll be less likely to see your point of view. I appreciate your passion.
chad

Hey jwsmith, You need to relax, man. I'll bet that I'd agree with most of your post there, but geez, I don't have that kind of time. It's like the folks that block the entire road with their peaceful protest to further a cause that I'm down with. If you block the road long enough, I'll be late for work. Then I'll be less likely to see your point of view. I appreciate your passion.
chad

Agreed....   

 Arm Chair Quarterbacking and thinking you have a grip on what it's like to do the job....

 What a Joke....

 Yes, there are unprofessional people in every aspect of every profession,   Screw it

 I Give up       and hope this topic gets locked again.....

 Just infuriating the lack of respect for a very tough job....   

 Till you have actually walked in those shoes and have felt the pressure JWSmith...

  You will Never Know........ 

 

 

Thanks for explaining yourself JW. I really feel better now that I know the policeman that only wanted to give those filthy alcohol and drug infested bums, that were likely responsible for half of the crime in the neighborhood, a bath was fired instead of a demotion or a neg dep. No thanks for continuing to post personal attacks against a fellow NCKA member. You weren't satisfied with the cop scalps you are giving yourself credit for taking up in Oregon. You never will be. "I am no police hater." "Irrational." "Fear is the mother of hate." "Pinheaded." "Takes all kinds to make a world." Your own words are so perfect when spoken back to you. Go to the mirror, look straight into the mirror, that face that you see, it's you. But what are you? redyak.

P.S. My kayak is red.

Police training, equipment and proceedure are principal reasons that police work does not generate more injuries/fatalities.

Wait, aren't you condemning the use of standard operating procedures? Or are you acknowledging that it is effective?

Either way, I can't believe I read the entire post haha. Don't know where to begin...7 years to obtain your degree? You are not and never were a "police-officer-of-police" so stop lying to yourself--you were a beat reporter. And judging from the innacurate, inflamatory nature of your posts, you should be working for TMZ, dude.  What would Doyle Sounders think of the ridiculous things you've claimed in this thread?
But kudos for getting me to bite.

That was the last straw, bye bye jwsmith...

There is "cowardice" Badge Heavy---you see it in female officers who are frightened of their shadow.

In the middle of a tyrade where it's already become apparent that you don't have many people on your side, why not just throw down a statement that alienates and pisses off 50.1% of the entire population directly, and us in the other 49.9% indirectly (if we support our ladies and their ideals of equality)... 

It's sad to see someone write of hatred in such a hateful and intolerant way.

Good call, Bill.

I was feelin ya for a second there, JW, but the personal insults are uncalled for and you had plenty of warning.


SRJ, I know if/when we meet face-to-face we won't have any animosity, (unless you taze me, bro).

Thanks for explaining your side and allowing me to vent.