Busted for shore fishing at Bonita Point 8/7/09

Last friday I went out to point bonita to try to see if I could scout a spot to carry my yack down the cliff and ended up throwing a few cast from shore. I went out to the point and saw some dudes fishing from the rocks about 1/2 mile east of the point. These harbor seal peps were mugging me so I decided to go a little east of the cove where the other guys were fishing - avoiding a potential conflict. I parked and walked down a dirt trail and found my own rock. It was too steep to carry the kayak unless you had a buddy. I fished for about 10 minutes, then 4 more guys showed up and mobbed my rock. There was not much action, or room, so I went to move spots. Up the cliff I noticed the the Rangers were watching me through binoculars. I didn't want to freak them out so I didn't use my binoculars to make things really awkward. I watched the other two groups of guys fish with no luck for about 15 min and was convinced the action was out further from the shore so I headed back to my truck. Too many seals too. At the top of the cliff a Ranger SUV stormed at me like in Supertroopers. Two dudes got out and instructed me to put down my tackle and sit on the curb. The tough guy had his hand on his gun (afraid of me?). They took my DL and ran a background check while they were convinced I was there to make seal hats or something. They explained i had been fishing in a closed area and that they had been staking me out from the cliff - real professionals. I informed them of a recent court ruling in La Jolla that sided in favor of public access over the protection of seals which are not endangered anymore (have you ever been to the mouth of the Russian?). They did not believe me so I said I would look it up on my phone for them. At this point they were getting over it. I told them to write me the ticket and we could all waist some more time and money, just to have me get this issue dismissed in court. I told them that I empathized with their feelings and that I always tread lightly, but did not believe our tax dollars should be allocated to limit public access. I told them that I worked for both the federal and local government and asked if they liked there jobs, but was not convinced with their answers.  A call came in on the radio proclaiming that there were more fishermen on the rocks - they asked me if that was the case. I said that I did not wish ill on other people ... (I knew all the guys at the bottom the cliff did not know english and were about to get rolled). At that point they decided to let me go on condition they never see me there again (I love when lawmen say that - it means they are confused about the purpose of their job). I think the public would be better SERVED by these guys if they put down their guns and picked up a shovel and built a nice trial down to the beach. I am a conservationist at heart, but believe in shared use and common sense, pragmatic regulations that truly benefit and enhance threatened populations, not just closing a beach for those cute, cuddly seals and their equally cute fans. So excuse this ramble, but if you want to fish point boinita, it looks like it is going to be a long paddle from fort baker (I guess seals are not disturbed when you're in a boat?).

Thanks for the report/heads-up, but something reeks here...  Are you saying you were about to get ticketed for harassing seals?!  What a crock!   

Guess I'd better chime in here as I work for the NPS in that area as one of those "SUPERTROOPERS" you speak of, though wasn't one of the officers at the scene with you. In fact, I was supposed to take that call but was tied up on another. I work with these officers every day and know them to be fair, level headed and professional. The officer you mention as having his hand on his gun does not place his hand on his gun unless under immediate threat. He places his hand on his belt adjacent his gun. There is a difference. I trained him and know this. You were contacted because you were in a closed area that is determined by the bigwigs and biologists in headquarters to be hazardous and a sensitive wildlife habitat area(to include Harbor Seals). The area you were in is not well posted and that is THE reason you were warned and not cited. I'd tend to call that fair. As always, there are  two sides to a story.

We make violator contacts all day long and have no idea who we are dealing with or their intentions. Wish I could dig up some of the thousands of dead officers up from the grave and have them explain this to you. The person who would injure or kill an officer has no particular look or disposition about them. They come in all shapes, sizes, colors, to include women, old people, children, cripples, bums, fishermen and anything in between. This is simple truth. The disposition of a person bent on harming an officer often manifests itself only at the exact moment they decide to injure or kill the officer. The appearance of a person is but a minor factor we  consider when handling contacts. 

You were instructed to place your rod and tackle box/bag on the ground because these items can and have been used as weapons against us. If you think I couldn't hurt you really badly with a fishing rod or tackle box then you are misinformed.  Let me take your fishing rod or tackle box and hit you as hard and as fast as I can across the face with it then tell me what you think. I  believe you would be unpleasantly surprised by the vicious injuries these items can inflict. I sometimes work in world of violence and I and my fellow officers are trained in a standardized fashion to employ tactics to protect ourselves. This includes limiting access to weapons or potential weapons. This is taught in every police academy in this country. 

You may argue that we have guns and therefore a fishing rod is fruitless against a gun. But, what you do not understand is that if I let you stand there upset and agitated, with a rod in your hand, in close proximity to me, you are capable of delivering a blow to me in far less than one second. I am very fast with my pistol, but not nearly that fast.  You were instructed to sit down because we don't know who you are, what you may be hiding, or what your intentions might be. Are you armed? On parole? Have warrants? Having folks sit down in certain instances protects us against a potential assault. These procedures were not designed or meant to humiliate you. I am sorry you felt the contact to be  unfair and humiliating. I just wanted to give you the perspective behind what we do and why we do it.  You seem like  a very solid and nice  person who would never consider harming an officer. But, I do not have the ability to read your mind to determine that. Hope you have a better understanding of our end of things.

Great response, SRJ - thanks for clearing up that it's a closed area (sounds like it needs better signage), and A BIGGER THANK YOU for doing what you do and being ready to help the public understand it.

 

You were instructed to sit down because we don't know who you are, what you may be hiding, or what your intentions might be.

He was carrying a fishing pole and tacklebox...  and was apparently observed fishing during the stakeout by your peers.

Neither of us was there, but based on what we know it would seem his intentions were very clear.  Your fellow officers, not so much.

You are correct in that his activity and intent to fish was clear. What I meant is that we do not know his intentions as related to bringing potential harm to us based on the other things I outlined: parole, wanted, mentally unbalanced, armed, etc. As stated before there is not a specific look to a person who would harm another. Child molesters do not always look like child molesters. Bringers of violence can look like anyone and be engaged in any activity, including fishing, prior to initiating violence. Until you've walked  in my shoes, do not presume to know what I know.

The problem sometimes with the untrained civilian public that does not deal in violence on a daily basis, is that their presumptions and insights are not based on factual information, training and experience, but theory, television, and supposition. This is what we call, "use of force and the hollywood factor". The problem with that is that what you THINK happens on police contacts or  what SHOULD happen, is quite often different than what REALLY happens. That is the difference between untrained supposition and fact.  I do not know your occupation sir and wouldn't presume to know how to perform it if I did. Why then, do you presume to know how to do my job?

SRJ,

I'll echo ABking's appreciation for what you do. If you browse this site you'll see copious praise and support for wardens, and very few criticisms.

I can see what you mean regarding taking steps to insure your safety. Putting down the rod and tackle box makes sense... being compelled to sit on the curb while running a background check strikes me as excessive, given the situation with the lack of signage. What I mean is, if a guy if fishing next to an "Area Closed" sign that says a lot about his attitude towards authority and having a seat makes more sense.  But again, you guys are out there everyday, I'm not going to try and tell you how to make those judgments.

I'd also suggest acknowledging the lack of signage, as you did in this post, and being plain as to that being the reason for no ticket. That would play well with people and help support the warden's image.

None of this is meant as criticism (I wouldn't do what you guys do for all the tea in China), just some suggestions for PRs sake.

Ben

Child molesters do not always look like child molesters. Bringers of violence can look like anyone and be engaged in any activity, including fishing, prior to initiating violence. Until you've walked  in my shoes, do not presume to know what I know.

I agree.  And I do appreciate your efforts.

But that said...  it sounds like you are ok with officers treating everyone like a cop killer.

I do not know your occupation sir and wouldn't presume to know how to perform it if I did. Why then, do you presume to know how to do my job?

As I mentioned, I do appreciate the danger that officers face every day.  But let's get real...  Police are public servants.  Perhaps you'd see less attitude from the public if we weren't automatically treated like criminals as a standard course of action.  Especially in broad daylight, to a man who is obviously fishing!

No ill will intended towards you, or officers in general.  I've been on both sides and can appreciate your POV. 

ITSONICE must be one scary lookin mofo!
Kidding aside, if the area is determined to be unsafe due to sealion presence, then it s/b posted as such.

I mean, what would happen if ITSONICE was harmed by a rogue sealion? Because if he was the litigious type, he could probably make a case against the city/park concessionaires based on the fact he was exposed to dangerous sealions (the park service rangers confirmed) without proper signage.

The real problem is that our damned lawmakers (insert political #!%@#$^ here) make so many laws that a guy doesnt know if he can fish on this rock or that rock.  We have a zillion laws, and no way in heck anyone could know them all.

So ITONICE, I feel for you.  I spent the better part of today trying to find the law I allegedly violated and have yet to find it or anyone who can point me to it.  Be pissed at the stupid law and those who made it.

SRJ, I have friends, relatives, even my neighbor who are in law enforcement.  I hear about the crap they take everytime we talk.  I have not walked in your shoes, but have borrowed them so to speak and wouldnt be pissed at all if you told me to do the hokie pokie.  

by the way, you wouldnt happen to know where the regs are that say a kayak has to be 1000 feet from shore are do you?

I do appreciate and understand your point of view.  I can take criticism and listen to your beliefs on the matter without being offended and do not feel offended. I do not question the actions of other officers unless I have been there and know all facts. We all have different thresholds of tolerance for particular situations. What those officers did was very reasonable as compared to treating someone like a cop killer. If that were the case, the subject of the contact would be face down on the hard concrete, in handcuffs with guns in his face. Instructing someone to put down their items and take a seat is the standard in this profession, nothing less, nothing more.  Lets not equate telling someone to sit down with treating them like at cop killer. Does that reasonable and rational to you?

I don't get why people get their panties in a knot when fish and game, or a cop, stops them -- even if the stop is lame. Stay chill, be polite and let the transaction take its course. Sort it out later. Being law enforcement is a thankless job, and you should appreciate what they do. Remember, there are tons of scumbags out there who look just like everyone else.

I don't get why people get their panties in a knot when fish and game, or a cop, stops them -- even if the stop is lame. Stay chill, be polite and let the transaction take its course. Sort it out later. Being law enforcement is a thankless job, and you should appreciate what they do. Remember, there are tons of scumbags out there who look just like everyone else.

BINGO...We have a winner. My thoughts exactly. Last time I was pulled over by the time the officer got to the truck my dome light was on (night time) and my licence, regs, and ins. cert.  were on the dash. I was let go with a warning. Then we talked kayaks as ours were on top.

Well.....from the facts stated I have another cut on the events:

SRT and his vociferously-endorsment of fellow GGNRA park service officers represents actual felony criminal conduct (Assault under Color of Law)....because they had no offence of any kind right from the outset.

1)  The shore and the waters of an around Bonita Point are wholely open to fishing
2)  Without "Closed to all Access"  "Prohibited Area" signs and fencing there is no administrative closure

It is an absolute:   With Administrative Closures----there is no closure without absolutely thorough un-ambiguous signage.

Therefore these badge-heavy eager-beaver fools.....HAD NO OFFENSE....HAD NO AUTHORITY.

ITSONICE wrote that the belligerant officer placed his hand on his gun.
Who are we to believe, ITSONICE, or this very belligerant fellow SRT himself, who was not there but who is    o h    s o    s u r e   that his bud would never do that.
It remains a fact: That since there was no vioation WHATEVER and no behavior that would warrent the use of or the threat of "deadly force" the man who placed his hand on his gun did in fact commit felony assult.
For the un-initiated in law, one does not have to hit a man to assault him.

Any reader of this contact report surely understands that GGNRA Park Officers are NOT Oakland police working the Avenues at night.
SRT mouthes the silly wish that he could bring all dead officers back to life.

SRT is a fool, a total fool, he is a badge-heavy fool, he does not understand HE IS WORKING PARK DUTY!!!!
SRT and any PARK officer who thinks or acts like him should be relieved of badge and job.

Park duty, as any reader will readily understand and agree, PRESUMES an entirely different service-venue than Metropolitan City daylight service (where still...PROFESSIONAL officers make the assumption wherever possible that the citizen they are dealing with is a law-abiding responsible individual.   NIGHTIME Metropolitan Police duty is more risky an itself authorizes the use of additonal layers of "police procedure" but even in cities at night PROFESSIONAL police maintain a courteous alert circumspection.
SRT and his coherts badge-heavy readiness to assume the worst is....in the setting of a park unrealistic and criminally incompetent.

Badge-heaviness betrays that an officer has adopted a flat catagorization of "THEM" and "US" with respect to citizen contacts.
Metropolitan police forces look for, and discharge, officers whose citizen-contacts betray such attitudes.

In a Park this is no only unwarranted, it is madness, it is officially incompetent-by-park-policy.

ITSONICE should write these men up.
They can be identified by time-of-day and location.
He does not need their IDs.

SRT does not belong in police service
The officers who contacted ITSONICE directly....do not belong in police service.
The Golden Gate National Recreation Area needs neither fools, nor bullys in its service.

Judd

I'm of the opinion that to support freedom of speech, you have to be willing to let people say what they want but,

ITSONICE seemed upset with the contact (reasonable)

SRJ (not SRT) response (reasonable)

Others who chimed in (reasonable)

JWSmith (really overboard?) (REALLY OVERBOARD?)

Why jump to name calling.  Since you weren't there (unless you were there) you have no basis for believing any piece of info herein more or less then any other piece of info herein.  Just because ITSONICE was upset doesn't mean he was right (or wrong).  And because SRJ is an officer doesn't make him a fool.  Nor is he a fool for offering an explanation of a situation, or offering perspective.

I'm all for law enforcement being as safe as possible (my best friend is L.A.P.D.)

I've been in ITSONICE position and was angry about it at the time (I've looked at it from their perspective and couldn't see how I'd act differently though)

My 2 cents:  There was a good/valuable discussion going, with valid points on both sides, until the name calling.

John