Rockfish rig question?

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Scott

Yeah,
I think we're all talking about different things/purposes. I was talking about an in-line loop (which is what I thought Kevin was looking for) not an end knot. Surgeon's loop is an end knot. And does not work well with lighter line.
The spider hitch CAN be used as an in-line knot but you will end up wrapping the bait around the main line, whereas the dropper makes the bait stick out, away from the main line. And the spider hitch is designed to be tied with heavy line.
The uni knot just plain sucks. It does not work as well as the improved clinch knot when tying an end knot.

Of course, the knot you tie should ultimately depend on the hook/bait/lure you're attaching.

PK

ps---didn't I tell you people will try to claim the dropper is not the best? So predictable....

I guess a Uni sucks and that is the one the " Excel" recommences on they Long Range trips. It is a 90% knot.  Must not know how to tie it correctly.

Spider hitch and Dropper do the same thing.

Ken kickfish

I would love to go on a long range trip and use 80lb test so I could tie Uni knots and spider hitches. I am sure those knots work great when applied properly.
But that is not what Kevin asked for.

Everybody has their opinions. Its ALL GOOD. I say try as many different kinds of knots as you like until you find one that works for you.
I will try the spider hitch more often to see if it works for me. Already performed a test with the uni knot and it did not work for me. Thats OK.

Not trying to be confrontational here...and not trying to get the last word. Just talkin knots. Research and benefits/features of different knots is actually an interesting topic to me...wow, that sounds kinda lame when said out loud LOL! I respect everyone's opinion when it comes to this type of stuff...I certainly can't know Everything.

Thanks guys, good discussion,
PK

Yeah,
I think we're all talking about different things/purposes. I was talking about an in-line loop (which is what I thought Kevin was looking for) not an end knot. Surgeon's loop is an end knot. And does not work well with lighter line.
The spider hitch CAN be used as an in-line knot but you will end up wrapping the bait around the main line, whereas the dropper makes the bait stick out, away from the main line. And the spider hitch is designed to be tied with heavy line.
The uni knot just plain sucks. It does not work as well as the improved clinch knot when tying an end knot.

Of course, the knot you tie should ultimately depend on the hook/bait/lure you're attaching.

PK

ps---didn't I tell you people will try to claim the dropper is not the best? So predictable....

   On all accounts. 

I'm not saying that thinking outside the box doesn't work but there's a reason these knots have been commonly used for decades. Going with another knot for a teaser is asking for trouble, lost fish and gear.  Will a dropper break, yes but not as often as other knots will and when they do its gonna be a heartbreaker cause the mother of all lings will be on the other end of it.   

The one tip I can give you about the Uni is 20 to 30lb test 3 to 5 wraps.  Bigger than 30 lb test you can use 3-4 wraps.  Trout lines test use 5 to 6 wraps.  If you can tie 2 to 3 good knots and have confidence in the knot.  That is what you should use.  Some what like why some people like certain lures.

Ken kickfish

Honestly, I've never had a problem with uni's.

-Allen

Actually, the Spider and Uni can be used with all sizes of test.  The same ones you use your Dropper with.  Also, Spider is easier to tie when you are on the Ocean.

I agree with the wrapping part.  But, if you are using it for rockcod you are using 30 to 40 lbs test and with that size of mono. there would be no line twist.

Ken kickfish

well, big game offshore fishing is different, but for rockfish fishing from a kayak,
I'd still just use a surgeons loop for the dropper, the reason being that the leader I am using is 40lb test and the mainline is 30lb braid.

as cafecraig notes, you can tie one into the middle of a leader in short order.  on the water or not.

if the surgeons loop for the dropper weakens the 40lb leader, it won't weaken it enough to matter that much compared to the mainline.
even if it goes down to 50%, that is still 20lbs of pull, and you have the thick leader just for abrasion mainly.

The whole big game tuna thing is a totally different ballgame. knots really matter there.  likewiise knots matter for trout fishing and real light line.

for rockfishing with big fat leaders,  strength of knot is not the biggest concern.

truth in advertising: Now, what I actually do is use a 3-way swivel between 30lb braid mainline and 40lb mono leader and tie my teaser to the 3way swivel.
I don't usually use a surgeons loop to put on the teaser.

J

Big tuna is a San Deigo Knot or Double San Deigo.  I tie a uni (Real simple knot to tie.  Can do it in the dark) to braid 30 # test or 65 # test.  No mono.  Less things to break.

Or will tie a spiderhitch on the braid and then it would be a double uni on the jig.

Ken kickfish

jmairey, i don't completely agree with your dropper not weakening as much compared to the mainline.  Most 30# braid will overtest to >50#.   Knot's matter in rockfishing too!  A few extra pounds is often the difference in freeing a jig, or breaking off at the knot.  You're not fishing if you're busy re-rigging.

I don't think big game fishing is any different.  It's all about finding your "confidence rigging" and being consistent.  Learn a handful of good quality knots and stick to them.

Why does this thread keep going back to uni's and San Diego knots.  I thought we're talking about loops?

-Allen

Sorry Allen,

Get a few beers in me  and you know the saying " She looked Good, last night".

Ken kickfish

So ... that being said ... I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.  Probably because I got too focused on tying a loop and cutting it to form tag ends.  A little background here.  Over the years my learning curve with splicing mono to mono is as follows.  Started with blood knot, tried a surgeons for a short period, went to uni-to-uni for a longer period, and in the last year I did any decent amount of tuna fishing, I switched to a J knot with good results.  The J knot is symmetrical/homogenous for both sides as well as the tag ends (as is the surgeon's knot, but I think the J knot is stronger and I have more confidence in it).  That means that any of the 4 ends can bear as much load as any of the other ones.  Note: some knots were meant to only have load on one end.  Just like some knots are directional and don't perform as well when pulled 90 degrees to how they were intended.  Anyway, next up for experimentation for me is to use the J knot to splice mono-to-mono and leave a tag end (the one going the same direction as the leader) long enough to tie a teaser to.  Et voila ... a full strength tag end that's not 90 degrees to the direction of pull, tied with a knot that I more or less trust (at least more than the others I've tried for mono-to-mono splicing).

BTW, I can tie a J knot very quickly and easily which is one of the reasons I went away from the uni-to-uni as I was looking for something faster.  In tuna bite, if you can't get re-rigged and in the water quickly, the bite may be over by the time you do.

Check out the J Knot at this article (scroll down) ...http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/saltwater/fishing/article/0,12746,472807,00.html

BTW, take a look at the Stren knot for joining braid to mono in the same article.  I've not tried that knot before.

-Allen