AOTY Clarification - Eel River Salmon

[Abking]

AOTY could stand for "Absolutely Obsessed, Thank You!"   

A good friend and one of the leaders of the current AOTY popped a big bubble of mine a couple weeks back when he told me that targetting salmon is a no-no on the Eel River (my home water right next to my house).  He said that people get ticketed for targeting salmon in the Russian, and it's "no take" for salmon up on the Eel too.  This confused me since I've seen people catching and releasing salmon on this "catch and release only" watershed for years now (including myself), and I've not heard or seen a warden do anything about it.  I decided to try to get clarification on this.  I read the regs and see that "no take" is mentioned for coho - OK, we know that.  I saw talk of "zero bag limit" for salmon on the Eel.  I decided to email Ed Roberts and Mary Patyten of DFG for some clarification since they've been great about responding thoroughly to questions on the regs.  I may have stumped them a bit, but they got my questions in the hands of Scott Downie, a senior DFG biologist specializing in Eel River issues who I've met on a few occasions.  Here is my question:

Hello, Ed and Mary.
 
I have a question about the Eel River.  I have been told that down on the Russian River folks have been ticketed for "targetting" salmon, because apparently salmon are "no take" down there, as opposed to "catch and release" only or "zero bag limit" as it is on the Eel.  It is my understanding that fishing for salmon on the Eel River is legal, but there is a zero bag limit.  "No take" would mean you may not even target a species, but I've not seen any talk of no take for the Eel River except in regards to Coho.  Can you please clear that up for me?
 
Thank you.
 
Eric

...and here is Scott's answer:

Dear Eric:

After reading the regulations and discussing with enforcement, I advise you that the short answer is "no take," as in the Russian special regulations (page 49 in the regs), means no fishing for salmon, although there is a fishery for hatchery steelhead or trout in that water. 

The Eel River section on page 36 allows a zero bag limit and thus fishing for salmon is allowed but no retention can occur (catch and release).  So it seems those are the differences between fishing specifically for salmon (or not) in those two waters.

I would advise closely reading the regulations, especially the Special Fishing Regulations (page 29), and the sections on particular waters like the Russian and Eel, or other waters that might be of interest.  Additionally, a conference with the local warden before angling would be prudent.  My reading and interpretation of the regulations cannot be used to over-ride those made by enforcement or legal personnel.  Hope it helps.

Sd

Scott Downie, Senior Biologist Supervisor California Department of Fish and Game Coastal Watershed Planning and Assessment Program
1487 Sandy Prairie Court, Suite A
Fortuna CA 95540
707.725.1070,  Fax:  707.725.1025
CWPAP website:
coastalwatersheds.ca.gov

This clears it up for me - it's NOT "no take" for salmon on the Eel, so it's legal for AOTY points.  (but still something that I wish was off limits! - if it's legal I'll entertain fishing it...  and I do.  I will support it's illegality too if they ever provide that additional protection for the fish - that's just me.)

I'd love to hear some discussion about this, but my focus is AOTY - valid entry or not.  The whole "should they or shouldn't they" about fishing for Eel River salmon at all is a different thread.

Eric   

[Northern Boy]

I understood that "catch and release" of Salmon in the river systems rather defeats the purpose of the "zero bag" because during the fight the salmon will dump their eggs and are thus not much good as spawners anyway. In fact I think I read this in an article quoting by a fisheries biologist who is a Great White Kayaker and BAM organiser.........?

I love that the DFG advice is too have a conference with your local warden.
 

[bsteves]

I'm going to go slightly off the specific example of the Eel River salmon and address "zero bag", "no retention", "catch and release only".

Up at NWKA (NCKA's sister site in the Pacific Northwest) we've been trying to figure this sort of thing out for our own AOTY. We have a lot of fisheries that are open for catch and release fishing but not retention.   For example you can fish for sturgeon up here any time of the year but only retain them during certain seasons.  This is very much unlike the example where you can actually get a citation for CnR rockfish fishing out of season in California.  In the end we decided for NWKA that following phrase would be our litmus test.. "Could you legally have retained the fish?"  Thus up here, you can't count things like native steelhead, coastal cutthroat trout, CnR sturgeon, or the 24.5" cabezon I caught a couple weeks ago (Oregon closed cabezon down early this year).  

I'm not saying that this is the rule for NCKA, but it's something to consider as a potential rule clarification.  Maybe for next year.

Brian

[bsteves]

AOTY could stand for "Absolutely Obsessed, Thank You!"  

I like it.

[Sin Coast]

IF you catch a salmon in the Eel where C+R fishing is allowed, then Yes it counts towards your AOTY scorecard. Why wouldn't it count?

[Abking]

Thanks for your answers.  Brian - I don't like yours since it means I wouldn't be able to get any AOTY points for an Eel salmon!     ...but I do very much appreciate your opinion.   

IF you catch a salmon in the Eel where C+R fishing is allowed, then Yes it counts towards your AOTY scorecard. Why wouldn't it count?

PK - the argument was that "no take" applied, which means that even targeting a species is illegal, so of course it wouldn't count for AOTY.  My point was that it's not "not take" up on the Eel (I don't know why not other than political bullshit...).

Oh, the guilt inside me...  I look forward to catching, carefully photo-ing, and releasing a big king here, but I feel bad about messing with a spawner...     I can live with a little guilt, because I know I'm not the problem, and I support a REAL solution, not just turn the once mighty Eel into C&R only and still don't do a whole hell of a lot about the rest of the issues that have screwed up the resource:  inhabited spawning creeks, degraded spawning creeks, lack of water, squawfish, estuary from hell...etc.   

[scwafish]

Heres my 0.02 and I know others have had similar opinions. 

The Chinook in the Russian and all tribs to the north (including the Eel) up to and including Prairie Creek are protected under the federal ESA as part of the Coastal Chinook ESU.  Section 9 of the ESA prohibits take which is defined in Section 3 as "to harass, harm, pursue, hunt, shoot, wound, kill, trap, capture, or collect, or to attempt to engage in any such conduct." Fishing clearly constitutes take.  It seems wrong to violate the Endangered Species Act for AOTY points.

As to Scott's opinion...well..he's a DFG biologist (and a rather good one at that) but not a warden.  I can tell you from many years of working with DFG that the biologists and the wardens frequently disagree.  I would put a LOT more weight in an email from a warden.

So if its against federal law, but ok with a blind-eyed state where does that leave us?  Not sure...but I won't be entering any fish from the Eel.  Entering AOTY points from the Eel would clearly ban anyone who did so from waving the "conservationist flag" at any time in the future. 

Finally, with your proximity to two of the finest salmon rivers in the state that allow retention...why go there?  If I can drive to $#%^& Bean Hollow for a cabbie and to Monte for a dino, and up to your house for a copper, I don't think its out of the realm of reasonable expectation for you to go 45 minutes to salmon city on the Klamath.

So there your piece of rope...do with it what you will!

[agarcia]

I'd equate it to trying to enter an oversized sturgeon, the rules prohibit it because of the no retention status.  Eel salmon....out. 

[bsteves]

Brian - I don't like yours since it means I wouldn't be able to get any AOTY points for an Eel salmon!     ...but I do very much appreciate your opinion.

I don't like it either.. I'm missing a whole bunch of cabezon points right now.

I also agree with Sean.  you shouldn't complain about Eel salmon when the Klamath is 45 minutes away.

[Abking]

I wish it was 45 minutes.  It's 1.5 hours.   

Entering AOTY points from the Eel would clearly ban anyone who did so from waving the "conservationist flag" at any time in the future.

"Clearly" - strong word there, Sean.     I respect your opinion enough to take it with a grain of salt...   

I think AOTY has changed my fishing priorities, so I'm probably on the sidelines next year.  Back to just Abking stuff - wild interactions, Good Times, documentation, Brotherhood.   

[scwafish]

Not trying to be a buzz-kill.  I know you like to fly the eco flag...and I got no beef with that.  I just seeing measuring a sexually mature ESA fish for points as very non-eco.  Trying to save you from the heck that is hypocrisy.

There is no reason a flag carrying-eco warrior can't fish AOTY with a clean conscious. Stripers, bass, and smallies are non-native...feel free to beat the crap out of them.  Sturgeon are easily C&R'd.  Rockies, cabs, and lings are recovering under current regs and very good locally harvested food for you and your family.  Same with a Chinook from the Klamath, and a flatty from the bay.  I just feel that targeting fishies on the ESA is over the line. 

That said...Fish onward King of Snails!  We love having you amongst us.

[Abking]

Not trying to be a buzz-kill.  I know you like to fly the eco flag...and I got no beef with that.  I just seeing measuring a sexually mature ESA fish for points as very non-eco.  Trying to save you from the heck that is hypocrisy.

There is no reason a flag carrying-eco warrior can't fish AOTY with a clean conscious. Stripers, bass, and smallies are non-native...feel free to beat the crap out of them.  Sturgeon are easily C&R'd.  Rockies, cabs, and lings are recovering under current regs and very good locally harvested food for you and your family.  Same with a Chinook from the Klamath, and a flatty from the bay.  I just feel that targeting fishies on the ESA is over the line. 

That said...Fish onward King of Snails!  We love having you amongst us.

Thanks for the love, Scaw (I figure Don calls you that on purpose, so I'll copy him!   ).  I'm not thrilled about messing with a spawner, but it's my home waters - I grew up fishing the lower Eel and the South Fork.  Never kept a spawner even back when you could.  I guess I feel entitled to do what's legal...  I'll wrestle with that one for a while.

Meanwhile, I've sent another email to Mr. Downie and friends asking about the Federal ESA and how it applies.  I'll get back on here with the response I receive. 

If I could still rockfish and lingcod hunt this would be more of a moot point...   

[scwafish]

Thanks for the love, Scaw (I figure Don calls you that on purpose, so I'll copy him!   ).

Changed my name...

If I could still rockfish and lingcod hunt this would be more of a moot point..

Be watchful or they are going to take your favorite spot forever.

[mickfish]

Silent But Deadly???? or Same Big Dude???

[scwafish]

Silent But Deadly