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Topic: Recommendations on lithium batteries  (Read 8054 times)

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Otis

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After the input from jp52 I started researching lithium batteries. There are 6 different kinds. I came to the same conclusion - the LiFePOP4 technology is probably the all-around best choice for kayaks. But even with that there is differences between LiFePOP4 batteries. Big differences in pricing for the same battery.

After looking into it, didn’t like what I found, wrote off the Dakota Lithium Batteries. I’ll leave it at that.

I found 9, 12 and 20Ah LiFePO4 batteries that I like a lot. Who knew there were small “smart” batteries out there. Those things will Bluetooth connect to an app (free) on the phone with batt status, volts, output current, temp, cycle life, event log, battery health. They also have a safety feature I like, monitoring circuitry will shut down the battery if there is a short, then automatically re-energize when corrected. All built into a
 little battery. On the downside, if the Bluetooth is always on it could run the battery down if not on a battery tender.


AlsHobieOutback

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This is what I use for a battery box:  https://www.amazon.com/LOCK-Airtight-Rectangular-Storage-Container/dp/B0000AN4CK/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2PWSLUDOLU9JK&keywords=lock+%26+Lock+hpl818&qid=1641397535&sprefix=lock+%26+lock+hpl818%2Caps%2C204&sr=8-2

I drill a hole in the corner of the lid just big enough for the wire to pass through.  Then add a dollop of Goop on the top and bottom of the wire entrance. 
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."

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Eddie

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I appreciate all of these battery studies and knowledge.  I am yet to hear of the dangers or impracticality and price point of using a jumpstart battery for a fish finder.  So far no issues and I’ve also used it to jump my car and charge my phone… :smt006
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AlsHobieOutback

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Don't know personally much about electricity, but lots of folks here seem to.  I was curious how the jumpstarter works for your setup since it's designed to supply high amperage (400a?) to jump a car, but your FF takes only a couple amps. 
"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."

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Eddie

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Don't know personally much about electricity, but lots of folks here seem to.  I was curious how the jumpstarter works for your setup since it's designed to supply high amperage (400a?) to jump a car, but your FF takes only a couple amps.
That’s the stuff I can’t explain either.  It has 3 settings by a button. 6,12,18v.  When I turn it on I put it on 12v for the fish finder and it seems to trickle or something…there is no heat and my waterproof box is solid.  I’ll try to post a pic…all I do is plug in my battery and it works.  After a full day of fishing, full brightness on screen for 5” Helix it’s only 50% down, on for 7 hrs… using this system for at least 2 years…I bought 2 at one point to run my 500 tsunami livewell but I could manage to run ff and livewell with a timer all day with one battery if I had to…
« Last Edit: January 05, 2022, 09:51:37 AM by Eddie »
“I’m going fishing.”  They said, “we will go with you.” 
John 21:3

Stealth Pro Fisha 475
Jackson Kraken 15
Native Manta Ray 12.5
Werner Cyprus 220cm


DavoG

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After the input from jp52 I started researching lithium batteries. There are 6 different kinds. I came to the same conclusion - the LiFePOP4 technology is probably the all-around best choice for kayaks. But even with that there is differences between LiFePOP4 batteries. Big differences in pricing for the same battery.

After looking into it, didn’t like what I found, wrote off the Dakota Lithium Batteries. I’ll leave it at that.

I found 9, 12 and 20Ah LiFePO4 batteries that I like a lot. Who knew there were small “smart” batteries out there. Those things will Bluetooth connect to an app (free) on the phone with batt status, volts, output current, temp, cycle life, event log, battery health. They also have a safety feature I like, monitoring circuitry will shut down the battery if there is a short, then automatically re-energize when corrected. All built into a
 little battery. On the downside, if the Bluetooth is always on it could run the battery down if not on a battery tender.

So, you don’t like the Dakotas, what brand did you like the most?  Just curious.


lucky13

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I don't actually own a Dakota LifePo4 battery, nor am I trying to vouch for such battery, but I recently ran a capacity test on a 4-yr old 10ah Dakota battery for someone on ncka. I was surprised that after 4 years of regular use, it still produces 10ah+ per cycle.


NowhereMan

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After looking into it, didn’t like what I found, wrote off the Dakota Lithium Batteries. I’ll leave it at that.

I'm curious about this. I don't have a Dakota, but an older version (K2) that I believe is identical. Mine is at least 8 years old, has been used a lot, and seems to be as good as new...
Are you pondering what I’m pondering?


Otis

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... what brand did you like the most?  Just curious.

Short answer: AOLithium and Power Sonic, or the least expensive plain-Jane generic LiFePO4 available.

Long answer:

Lithium batteries come with or without a built-in battery management system (BMS). I prefer a BMS for the protection it offers to the battery, and the information it provides. A BMS will cut off current (turn off the battery) if it detects things like overcharging, low voltage, over current, over temp, under temp, external short circuit. A quality BMS will balance the voltage of the individual power cells inside of the battery, extending the life of the battery.

Nearly all the small lithium batteries I looked at do not have a BMS. There are 3rd party battery monitors that can be used with them, or any lithium battery, that will provide the same information as a built-in BMS, but not the protection a BMS provides.

BMS’s, built-in or add-on, are either Bluetooth enabled or not. If Bluetooth is available you can connect your cellphone to the BMS to monitor the status of the battery for things like voltage aka SOC (state of charge), temp, current draw (amp load), time to minimum voltage (turning off) with that load, overall battery health, number of cycles. To know the load on a battery requires a shunt. A built-in BMS has the shunt on the PC board inside of the battery. An aftermarket BMS has a shunt that is rather large for what it does. Having the BMS inside of the battery makes it all-around easier to deal with.

AOLithium is my first choice for 20Ah battery with built-in BMS. $103, free shipping. It does not have Bluetooth for the BMS, so it has the battery protection I want but I am in the dark for battery status.





Extremely close second place, Power Sonic has a BMS with Bluetooth enabled. $175 from Tech Battery Solutions, free shipping, when in stock. It is out of stock in a lot of places. Where it is available, it is about $60 more ($230-ish), and no free shipping. The app is free from where ever free apps come from. The BMS with this battery will balance the internal power cells extending the battery life. The app will display the voltage of each individual power cell inside of the battery. I see the individual cell voltage as info I do not need, useless. The cell balancing, along with Bluetooth, helps justify the extra cost of this battery and makes it a good choice for someone that cycles a battery often and wants to monitor the condition of the battery on their smartphone.



**Note: Power Sonic has a desirable little 2.6-lb, 9Ah battery available from Sagers for $78. It comes with BMS, Bluetooth, free battery monitoring app … everything needed to bring extra electrons onto the water with you to power any LED lights on your kayak.

I think I want to know the status of the battery when on the water. I can estimate the number of amps I (and fishfinder) will need during an outing and just buy a big enough battery that guarantees I am covered. But that only works when everything is going well. I won’t know if things went south until the fishing comes to an unexpected end. Knowing the battery status helps avoid that from happening.

Something to keep in mind is not all lithium batteries can be combined into a ‘bank’, meaning they cannot be connect parallel to increase capacity or in series to increase voltage. The little AOLithium batteries cannot be combined together, the Power Sonic batteries can. It only matters if you plan to expand the house bank to support a microwave oven, small refrigerator, and multi-channel stereo on your kayak, that kind of thing.

If you just want power, like just a plain 20Ah battery or 10Hrs or something, just a battery, I suggest looking for the cheapest LiFePO4 battery you can find and buy it. Forget brand names. The only criteria is – “cheap”. If it craps on you, throw it away, buy another one, move on with your life. There is only a handful of companies making a bazillion batteries in China. They wholesale them to anyone that wants to buy them inexpensively and re-brand with their own name on them. Most of the lithium batteries I looked at fall into this group. They are what I would call generic batteries branded to look like a unique product. There is nothing wrong with that. The exact same battery may be available branded differently from someone else for less money. You don’t know.

About the UL certified batteries … forget it, don’t waste any time or money on that attribute. It is meaningless to us on kayaks. To UL a battery is a “component” of some other product getting the UL certification of safety approval. A component is not certified on it’s own as “safe” and likely has conditions attached to its approval, and it must be combined with other parts to make the ‘whole’ of whatever is being certified as safe. When UL is going through the certification process, they evaluate components that have already been certified as safe for use as components in other products. Those previously certified components are designated with “UR” (UL Recognized) written backwards with slanted letters, and are sort of pre-certified, with conditions, for use in a different product pending review. There is a certification process but it does not necessarily need to start from scratch.

I’ll make up an example of how it works, let’s say this SLA battery:



… is UL certified as safe, but only when installed/used in this item:



… but it is NOT certified as safe when used in this item:




... and NOT certified as safe when used in this item:



... but may be considered for recertification as also safe to use in either the kayak or the uninterrupted power supply. But until it is recertified as safe it is not "blessed" for use in either.


In summery, any UL certified battery you take out on the water in a Tupperware box on your kayak is not certified as safe for use as you are using it, regardless of any UL certification associated with the battery.

One last comment on the UL/UR mark; any UL safety certification only applies to the company that applied for it, and it is not transferable. If, in China, say, Zshu Fly Battery Company makes a battery and has it certified with UR, that certification does NOT automatically transfer with the sale of the batteries to, say, Wyoming Batteries (not a real company), when Wyoming Batteries is buying them in bulk and re-branding them. UL would need to certify the battery, again, depending on the application as defined by Wyoming Batteries. Only after reviewing and recertifying would Wyoming Batteries have UL certification for the batteries they sell, but then only when the battery is used in the final product as Wyoming Battery specified to UL in their application. In that regard, the UL cert obtained by Zshu Fly Batteries is irrelevant to us, the consumers. Only the Wyoming Batteries UL cert matters to us ... or not.

I spent the time on the UL cert thing because both Power Sonic and AOLithium pimp the UL thing. It is not a consideration to me. Any battery monger pimping TUV is similar. TUV is UL’s European competitor that is very active in the US and Asia. You can think of UL and TUV as the same thing. While researching lithium batteries I came across the TUV cert on Battle Born batteries.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2022, 05:59:10 PM by Otis »


dan916

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Also make sure your battery tender or charger is made for lifepo4 batteries or lithium batteries or you will fry it with in 6 months. I thought my tender was rated for my lifepo4 but turns out it wasn’t. Was a $150 lesson. I’m running a eco-worthy 12v 20ah lifepo4. I can probably go an entire week of fishing without it going dead. I’ve done 3 full days with it and still have about 1/2 life left. It on a tender while at home.
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DavoG

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Wow, Otis!  Lots of great info you provided.  I appreciate it as I’m sure many others will as well.  Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed education on lithium batteries, you put a lot of time and effort into it.


DavoG

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Thanks for the comment Dan.  From what I have researched the right charging system is definitely important to protect your lithium battery investment.


dan916

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Yes! It really sucked! I was launching when ff turned off. I couldn’t figure out what the issue was especially since I keep it on the tender. So I fished old school and went out blind. Got home and tested the battery to find it was reading .58-.80 amps. So now I have a new battery and bought the best on-board tender for llifepo4 batteries that I could find so I won’t have to worry about that being an issue again.
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Otis

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Yes! It really sucked! I was launching when ff turned off.

That reinforces my though about have a battery monitor that will tell me the voltage of the battery and how much drain there is at any given time. I went back and forth between getting a battery with an internal monitor and a big, cheap battery, decided it is probably better to know than to ‘think’ I know how the battery is. Only a few bucks more for a battery with a monitor.

What size/brand of charger did you get?


dan916

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Exactly! This new one is connected to my phone. And my tender has lights on it that also tells me where it’s at in the charging process. I got it off of Amazon. Here’s the link https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00EUF6UM8?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

I have installed inside my kayak attached to my battery box and have a waterproof 3 prong plug-in on the inside gunnel. Don’t need to take the battery out, disconnect any cables just plug an extension cord in and walk away. Makes it easy to charge anywhere
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