nobody wants to touch it

he's a rich guy that cheated on his taxes  hahahhahjahhahhahaah

He did not cheat.

-Allen

I usually don't make such statements, but - you both are wrong.

We just don't know.

Of course, the fact that despite tradition Trump did not show his tax returns does not work in his favor.

BTW, those who are so sure about US institutions, checks and balances - many of them don't have enforcement mechanism and depend on traditions (as in this case with tax returns). It's going to be interesting test...

Innocent until proven guilty.  God bless America.

-Allen

presumption of innocence does not automatically mean one have not committed crime.

But it does mean that you're unfairly asserting that they did.

-Allen

where? I said you both are wrong and we just don't know.

Yes, we know that he is innocent until proven guilty.

-Allen

...and that it does not mean he did not cheat

I guess we are on the same page here

Bark up another tree.  To insinuate that someone might be guilty even though not proven is very un-American.  And to put forth an argument on said assertion holds no water in my book ....

-Allen

OMG. I don't understand what's un-American in keeping options open, but of course your book is your book.

Do some research on the term "innocent until proven guilty", then maybe you'll understand.

I mean, I might as well just assert that you're a fucking lunatic and have no idea what you're talking about.  Where would the conversation go if all started lying through our teeth and basing our arguments on not yet proven "facts".  Hmmmm .... it would end up with me as president on the USA.  Grrr ....

-Allen

http://scalar.usc.edu/works/growing-apart-a-political-history-of-american-inequality/who-pays-taxes-and-american-inequality

What happened!?!?!? Allen? Everyone? Where'd the fish pictures go!?!?!

he's a rich guy that cheated on his taxes  hahahhahjahhahhahaah

He did not cheat.

-Allen

I usually don't make such statements, but - you both are wrong.

We just don't know.

Of course, the fact that despite tradition Trump did not show his tax returns does not work in his favor.

BTW, those who are so sure about US institutions, checks and balances - many of them don't have enforcement mechanism and depend on traditions (as in this case with tax returns). It's going to be interesting test...

Innocent until proven guilty.  God bless America.

-Allen

presumption of innocence does not automatically mean one have not committed crime.

But it does mean that you're unfairly asserting that they did.

-Allen

where? I said you both are wrong and we just don't know.

Yes, we know that he is innocent until proven guilty.

-Allen

...and that it does not mean he did not cheat

I guess we are on the same page here

Bark up another tree.  To insinuate that someone might be guilty even though not proven is very un-American.  And to put forth an argument on said assertion holds no water in my book ....

-Allen

OMG. I don't understand what's un-American in keeping options open, but of course your book is your book.

Do some research on the term "innocent until proven guilty", then maybe you'll understand.

I mean, I might as well just assert that you're a fucking lunatic and have no idea what you're talking about.  Where would the conversation go if all started lying through our teeth and basing our arguments on not yet proven "facts".  Hmmmm .... it would end up with me as president on the USA.  Grrr ....

-Allen

This is interesting twist.

First - This is wrong analogy. It might make sense if you could quote me insinuating anybody, but you can't. And it has nothing to do with presumption of innocence. Similarly as two negatives do not make positive.

Second, regarding format you moved to.. I hope you are not asserting much here. Anyways this discussion does not go anywhere.

Been probably said before but Trump is only playing by the rules politicians before him put in place.  It would be dumb to pay more than what the tax law says you should pay whether a billionaire, millionaire or some Joe Schmoe.

That's assuming he's playing by the rules. He's been anything but transparent so I would doubt he plays by the rules. But I agree, a system that allows billionaires to pay 15% on capital gains income is need of some change.

I would think that almost any fair minded, open minded person would come to one and only one conclusion if they chose to speculate on why Trump did not release his taxes. It's really pretty obvious. If you are conservative and very rich and because of legal tax rules you are paying no or next to no taxes you will be vilified in the press. If you are running for president why would any smart person offer up something for the press to beat them over the head with? It's the same reason he wouldn't offer specifics. Any policy has winners and losers. The losers will be pissed off. Being vague pisses off fewer people. It's just politics. If you followed the wiki leaks stuff you heard some of Hillary's staff questioning why she would do something like the personal server. It's simple. Being called out for what she did was better for Hillary than having the 30,000 deleted emails becoming public.

Oops ... I do NOT think you are a lunatic.  Even though it has not been proven otherwise.   

-Allen

Thanks, it would be pretty stupid to assert otherwise

http://scalar.usc.edu/works/growing-apart-a-political-history-of-american-inequality/who-pays-taxes-and-american-inequality

good article, thanks.

In other words, those who have realized the lion’s share of income gains over the last generation have also enjoyed the largest tax cuts.[...]Tax policy does much less to moderate inequality today than it did in 1960 or 1980. And more importantly, the modestly progressive structure of federal taxes is essentially flattened by the regressive structure of local and state taxes.

Just come out and say it man, you want the rich to pay more than their fair share.

-Allen

If everyone paid the same tax bracket, that would be fair, but they don't. The mega-rich often pay lower tax rates than the very poorest taxpayers. You think Trump is the only one who pays low/no taxes? And do you think thats fair? I'm not saying it's illegal, but the policies that allow this should change.

And on percentage vs dollar amount, someone who pays 25% on $60K is coughing up $15K. That's a LOT! Not saying it isn't fair, but it's a big chunk of money. Meanwhile, someone makes a million bucks on a stock sale and they pay 20%, so $200K. Is that a lot? Yes. But he's putting less back into the system per dollar earned than the guy who made $60K. How is that fair?

Maybe everything should be priced according to this fairness doctrine. It doesn't matter if you drive on the same street as the rest of us, if you earn more you should pay more to use the street. So maybe richer people should pay more for a box of cereal than average people. If a rich guy buys a F150 he should pay at least ten times what I pay. Then I could pay less for my truck. Wouldn't that be fair? The problem with this idea of fairness is it's only in the eye of the beholder. If the top 10% pays 50% of all taxes, some would call that unfair. If we had a flat tax, the rich would still pay more taxes than the poor. Some would call that fair. The way it is presented now is if someone works their ass off for 20 or 30 years and makes a lot of money by providing a valuable commodity or service, they are treated as though they owe more because they've "taken" more. In reality they've "given" more and, they pay more in tax dollars. Why do we think the people that have contributed so much value to society should be treated as leaches and takers because they want to keep more than 20% of the money they earned.

  Hmmmm .... it would end up with me as president on the USA.  Grrr ....

-Allen

Well, at least I voted for you!

And, look what I caught today!  RDM is shaping up!

Bushy

I vote that those that go fishing more and catches more fish should pay higher license fees and those that don't should only pay 1/2 the price.  Fair?

This thread has gone all kinds of sideways.  Apparently people do want to touch it. 

Flat tax is the best option no matter how much a person makes. 

Then base the budget off of all money collected and don't spend a penny more.  Borrowing money to give to social programs is ridiculous period.  You can't run your house like that so the government shouldn't be allowed to. 

Businesses pay Income taxes, payroll taxes, medical insurance tax, workers Comp tax and all the other nickel and dime taxes that can destroy a business.  Some hire better accountants and are able to keep more so even if it is legal two similar people just as two similar workers or businesses all pay different taxes.  That's why a flat tax would be best.  Someone making 10k would pay the same percentage as someone making millions. 

I don't have a clue why so many are against it.  It's sort of like the voter ID requirements that people oppose.  It's so easy to get a license or ID these days it's not keeping anyone from voting.  But it would help keep the fraud down so someone doesn't vote for dead people, shut ins or made up people.

I vote that those that go fishing more and catches more fish should pay higher license fees and those that don't should only pay 1/2 the price.  Fair?

if only fish could vote...

All of this back and forth he dose this she did that he gets a break and I don't like it ect ect
It reminds me of when I was in junior high my mom picked up a short wave radio I could here what a lot of the world had to say about things it was very clear very fast that all the nations said what would best reflect there own interests it was the early 70s nothing has changed foreign or domestic politics is the same that said now you can guild  your media coverage to your tastes and never see the other side
I know what motivates  me trying to keep this country strong and free for my kid
I'm sure my opposition thinks they are rigth   But the thing that is most often lost in politics is simple changes to law  minor changes can be and often are dire to those that are directly affected and. Often in unforeseen ways

I know you guys are super smart.
No one arguing that -little name calling but thats normal for you girls.
But! I just read the last three pages hoping to learn something
I did'nt learn shit
Trump will disclose about U.F.O's by 2018 taking bets?