Donner lake drowning

Sad.
I wonder if wearing the pfd would have prevented death, cold water and all?

My condolences to the family and friends. Terrible tragedy that could have been avoided.
I am going to forward this to my buddy that NEVER wears the PFD  I gave him. He uses it for a seat!

Sad.
I wonder if wearing the pfd would have prevented death, cold water and all?

It's no guarantee but it gets you past the initial shock.  It sounds like one person locked up and drowned immediately.  Cold Incapacitation at that temp might be as quick as 10 minutes, but that should be enough time to get back into a canoe, or kick to shore 100 yards away.

Just a refresher for everyone on cold water immersion ...

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=63778.msg717235#msg717235

Also, there's that video online that was published by the Coast Guard.  There're a bunch of old posts to be found as well.

Just a refresher for everyone on cold water immersion ...

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=63778.msg717235#msg717235

Also, there's that video online that was published by the Coast Guard.  There're a bunch of old posts to be found as well.

The USCG video is stickied at the top of this forum

http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/index.php?topic=38111.0

Still not sure how you capsize a canoe in those conditions, but they might have been inexperienced.

In big waves, the margin of safety in a canoe is quite small, because it's easy to take on water and swamp the canoe.  These canoeists probably didn't have enough skill to keep the bow of the canoe pointing into the wind and waves, particularly if the gusts of wind were coming from varying directions.  If the canoeists didn't know how to kneel on the bottom of the canoe to lower its center of gravity, and how to brace with their paddles, a gust of wind could have capsized their canoe.  And if a swamped canoe doesn't have much flotation, the gunwales can be pretty much level with the water.  I'm guessing the canoeists didn't have any bailing devices with them, and most recreational canoeists don't know how to bail water out of a canoe with their paddles.  In big waves, water can come into a canoe faster than the canoeists can bail it out.  The bottom line is that even in warm weather and warm water, recreational canoeists can be in trouble if they swamp their canoe in the middle of a lake.  In cold weather and cold water, recreational canoeists will be in really big trouble if they swamp their canoe.  As shown by this incident on Donner Lake.

If you know how to roll a sit-inside kayak, you can be pretty bombproof in big waves.  You can control the sit-inside with the help of its outfitting, you can brace through large breaking waves, if you get tipped over on your side you can scull with your paddle and pop back upright, and if you get dumped over by gusts of wind or waves, you can just roll back up.  And if you're wearing a dry suit and appropriate gloves, you can stay warm and comfortable even when paddling in the snow, particularly since your lower body is protected by the kayak.

In a sit-on-top kayak, you are way more bombproof than you are in a canoe, because you can't swamp a sit-on-top kayak.  When waves break over the kayak, they just drain away.  If you roll over a sit-on-top kayak, you can roll it back upright and climb back on in a couple of seconds. However, unless you have thigh straps (which don't work real well in a pedal kayak, unless you pull the pedal drive and start paddling, which is a real good idea in big waves), you are less bombproof in a sit-on-top kayak than you are in a sit-inside kayak, because if the kayak gets tipped enough, you'll fall out of your seat into the water, even if you're bracing like crazy.  And even if you're wearing a dry suit, you won't be as warm in a sit-on-top kayak as you would be in a sit-inside kayak, because your feet and lower body will get wet and will be exposed to the wind.

A large-cockpit recreational sit-inside kayak with no spray skirt is possibly even riskier than a canoe in waves and wind, because they sit lower in the water, they usually don't have any flotation at all, and it can be harder to bail water out of a kayak.

Very sad for their families. I bought my first yaks after capsizing a canoe at launch at Caples lake 25 years ago with my young son.

Very, very sad indeed.

... unless you pull the pedal drive and start paddling, which is a real good idea in big waves ...

Lots of good info, pmmpete, but I'm not sure about pulling the pedal drive. I feel like I can slice thru almost anything when pedaling hard and using the rudder for balance. But whenever the wave are big enough to crash over the yak, the paddle seems to be more of a handicap than a help. Of course, my experience with these situations is mostly in the surf zone---I hope to never run into waves like that anywhere else...

I'm not sure about pulling the pedal drive. I feel like I can slice thru almost anything when pedaling hard and using the rudder for balance.

In the surf zone, a Mirage Drive and rudder can roll your kayak in a flash if you get turned sideways on the pile of a wave, because the fins and rudder grab water sideways, and the pile pushes your kayak over and rolls it towards the beach.  In a paddle kayak with the rudder up, or in a Hobie with the Mirage Drive out and the rudder up, when your kayak gets turned sideways on the pile of a wave, you can brace on the pile with your paddle, and the pile will push your kayak sideways towards shore.

And if you start surfing a wave towards shore with your Mirage Drive in, because the drive is in the front half of the kayak, the fins tend to make the kayak veer sharply towards the left or the right, and as soon as you get sideways on the wave, the pile flips the kayak over towards the shore as described above.  There's a reason why the fins on surfboards are at the rear of the board: because they tend to straighten the board so it's pointing down the fall line of the wave.  If you put the fins on the nose of a surfboard, the fins would tend to make the surfboard turn 180 degrees so it was surfing with the rear of the surfboard towards shore, and the nose and fins away from shore.  That's what a Mirage Drive can do to a Mirage Drive kayak: Make it veer to the left or right if you get surfed on a wave. 

Here's a couple examples of Hobies getting dumped during surf landings.  Certainly many paddle kayaks get dumped in a similar manner, but the Mirage Drive fins make a dump a lot more likely.





If you start getting turned sideways, you can reduce your chances of getting dumped by instantly pushing one of your pedals all the way forward, so the Mirage Drive fins are up against the bottom of your kayak.  But this is counter-intuitive. When something exciting happens in the surf zone, the tendency is to brace equally with both feet, which leaves the Mirage Drive fins sticking straight down, where they can turn you sideways, grab water, and flip you towards shore.  If I'm going through surf, I prefer to pull out my Mirage Drive, clip in thigh straps, and paddle my Hobie.  If something exciting happens when I'm paddling, I can instantly brace or rudder with my paddle.  If something exciting happens when I'm pedaling, about all I can do is jazz hands as I get dumped over.

But I digress from the subject of this thread, which is to remind people that it is a bad idea to go out in a kayak or an open canoe in cold weather, cold water, wind, and waves without a PFD and without a drysuit.  As illustrated by those unfortunate canoeists on Donner Lake.

Sad.
I wonder if wearing the pfd would have prevented death, cold water and all?

In this situation, it certainly would have. There were spectators to this drowning, and at the very least emergency services would have been able to get to them before death by hypothermia.

I'm not sure about pulling the pedal drive. I feel like I can slice thru almost anything when pedaling hard and using the rudder for balance.

In the surf zone, a Mirage Drive and rudder can roll your kayak in a flash if you get turned sideways on the pile of a wave, because the fins and rudder grab water sideways, and the pile pushes your kayak over and rolls it towards the beach.  In a paddle kayak with the rudder up, or in a Hobie with the Mirage Drive out and the rudder up, when your kayak gets turned sideways on the pile of a wave, you can brace on the pile with your paddle, and the pile will push your kayak sideways towards shore.

And if you start surfing a wave towards shore with your Mirage Drive in, because the drive is in the front half of the kayak, the fins tend to make the kayak veer sharply towards the left or the right, and as soon as you get sideways on the wave, the pile flips the kayak over towards the shore as described above.  There's a reason why the fins on surfboards are at the rear of the board: because they tend to straighten the board so it's pointing down the fall line of the wave.  If you put the fins on the nose of a surfboard, the fins would tend to make the surfboard turn 180 degrees so it was surfing with the rear of the surfboard towards shore, and the nose and fins away from shore.  That's what a Mirage Drive can do to a Mirage Drive kayak: Make it veer to the left or right if you get surfed on a wave. 

Here's a couple examples of Hobies getting dumped during surf landings.  Certainly many paddle kayaks get dumped in a similar manner, but the Mirage Drive fins make a dump a lot more likely.





If you start getting turned sideways, you can reduce your chances of getting dumped by instantly pushing one of your pedals all the way forward, so the Mirage Drive fins are up against the bottom of your kayak.  But this is counter-intuitive. When something exciting happens in the surf zone, the tendency is to brace equally with both feet, which leaves the Mirage Drive fins sticking straight down, where they can turn you sideways, grab water, and flip you towards shore.  If I'm going through surf, I prefer to pull out my Mirage Drive, clip in thigh straps, and paddle my Hobie.  If something exciting happens when I'm paddling, I can instantly brace or rudder with my paddle.  If something exciting happens when I'm pedaling, about all I can do is jazz hands as I get dumped over.

But I digress from the subject of this thread, which is to remind people that it is a bad idea to go out in a kayak or an open canoe in cold weather, cold water, wind, and waves without a PFD and without a drysuit.  As illustrated by those unfortunate canoeists on Donner Lake.

Thanks for posting this great insight. For a newbie Hobie owner and kayaker like me, this is gold.

I still remember the first time I fell into cold water, kayaing down the upper Kings, I dropped down a little chute and the inflatable yak folded in half...knees touched my face haha...and I ended up in the water. Shockingly cold, I made it to shore eventually, after swimming for about 3 minutes. Climbed out and tried to run along the shore to catch up to my yak...and the rest of our group in a big raft. And my legs didn't work! My knees were locked up and my ankles felt frozen...probably looked like a broken robot. I couldn't run; I could barely walk, so I had to sit down. As my kayak & rafting crew continued downriver beyond my vision (they didn't know I bailed and wouldn't have been able to stop there anyways).  Fortunately, a commercial rafting group was behind me and they stopped to help.
That experience that made me appreciate the affect cold water has on my body.

In the surf zone, a Mirage Drive and rudder can roll your kayak in a flash if you get turned sideways on the pile of a wave, because the fins and rudder grab water sideways...

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I'm already pulling my drive for surf landings, but I hadn't thought about how easily it could flip you.

It is also worth pointing out that in both of those videos, simply dropping their legs over the sides of the boat to act as brakes would have let the wave pass under them and prevented their dunkings.

They were good friends with one of my friends on Facebook.  Sad story

Lucas I had known for over 10 years through his sister who is a freind of the wife and I's. Tough times for their family, a tragedy indeed.

Being in a canoe with no PFD on a windy day on a very cold lake is a bad idea. Still not sure how you capsize a canoe in those conditions, [...].

The east end of Donner lake is one of those places where less than 10mph wind can make it choppy and a nuisance to fish. 15mph, and you get tight waves that begin to break. Anything around 15mph at the east end; you best focus on maintaining balance, especially if tying knots, reaching behind your back to grab gear (this ones almost got me a couple of times), or general fiddling on the deck. Never been on the lake during an active lake wind advisory and 15-20+ winds, but I can't imagine it being very relaxing.