Series drogue for surf re-entry?

Interesting discussion and concept:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5086057385/m/9141008492

See Coast Guard report at:

http://www.seriesdrogue.com/

Why not just back paddle if you want to avoid momententum?...not to mention sometimes you need to paddle like hell, hate to have one slowing me down. 

I'm a flatwater guy with limited kayak experience but the link is a kayak-adapted gear discussion.  The discussion, and websites it includes, make very clear that the series drogues are not drift sock / sea anchor devices and apparently offer cures for the disadvantages of those devices.

It is reported in the discussion thread  as being successful and is being purchased by at least some kayakers who see a potential.  Me, I don't know, so I posted for you guys to take a look and comment on what is touted by others (not me) as a potential safety device.  It is radically different than the practices scwafish (and everyone else I have read about or seen on the water) uses.

The question is, could it be better, safer, or more foolproof?  Should it be part of kayak safety gear, if only for extreme situations?

Thanks.

Why not just back paddle if you want to avoid momententum

Exactly.
IMHO it's best to keep as much control and maneuverability as possible in the surf zone. A drogue sounds like a great idea right up to the point where you're under a breaking wave and your parking brake is on.

As a professional wipeout artist I just stick to the store everything/crash and burn method.  It would probably help keep the boat perpendicular to the wave in smaller sets but anything overhead (while sitting in the yak) would probably blow you off if it broke on you or buck you out if the wave crests underneath you.  I also don't like the idea of having lines to get tangled in should you go over.  Just my .002.

I think it would work for the 2-4 surf that is big enough to be a hassle but not big enough to really cause a problem.

but I will continue to use the wait, paddle backwards if necessary, then paddle like hell method for my landings.

if it's really bad, you jump out and hold onto a stern line and act as a human drogue, this works fine except you get a bit wet.

J

I've used the series drouge effectively to bring in seasick or injured paddlers through surf at La jolla when I worked as a guide in Socal. It is a last resort only! Your timing and ability to read wave sets has to be

spot on. Loose rope and surf is a recipe for disaster. Do like Scwafish says and learn to back paddle and sprint when the wave passes under hull. This works on Hawaii five-o waves as well as 2 footers

--This pic shows another way of bringing someone in. Don't try this at home kids!

Agree getting experience and developing sound judgment and good skills always a good idea. 

Could you share some details about how and when you used the series drogue, any problems you experienced, etc.?

How did you come to have and use the series drogue?

What "last resort" situations seem appropriate for a series drogue?

Thanks.

Just go find a reasonably safe beach and a small swell , bring a buddy, leave all of your fishing crap at home and play in the surf for a day, or better yet take a class if you're real uncomfortable.  From what I see over at KFS ...a bunch of blah blah blah...no paddling, no water time, no fishing.  Save your money for gas and go have fun on the coast.

Series drogue recap

Everyone agrees good swimming skill, paddling skills, experience in the surf, and sound judgments are indispensable tools for encountering the surf.  The question is whether a series drogue should have any role in the prudent kayaker’s safety gear or regular equipment, in the surf or otherwise.  Do they have, for example, application as an aid to the inexperienced, injured, or exhausted paddler?

Stobbo from New Zealand on KFS http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5086057385/m/9141008492 posts about his positive research, experience, and testing plus gives online references to a commercial site www.seriesdrogue.com and email address  to the vendor bryan@seriesdrogue with experience selling, using, and a willingness to adapt the concept for kayaks and other small boats.

AlohaDan from Hawaii on KFS (and the Hobie site) is intrigued buys from Bryan Glover and assembles what he hopes is a kayak-appropriate series drogue to test and shares pictures of his rig.

Stobbo on KFS explains why series drogues avoid the negative aspects of sea anchor / drift socks.

MarkCz on KFS shares a second commercial source for series drogues: http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_4_m1.htm

Swellrider from Eureka [upper northern California] on NorCal reports using the series drogue effectively as a last resort to bring in seasick or injured paddlers through the surf at La Jolla [southern  California] when he worked there as a guide but cautions loose rope in surf is a recipe for disaster http://www.norcalkayakanglers.com/bb/index.php?topic=6765.0  reply 6
.
Many think surf and series drogues make no sense, and pose a foolish and unacceptable danger that should deter anyone from using them.  Maybe they are right, though the real world evidence on actual use of series drogues posted so far is to the contrary.

Some may already be sold on the series drogue without reservation, that they guarantee an end to endos and being maytagged.  Maybe they are right, but there is not enough evidence posted so far to warrant this conclusion and I have seen no posts that hold this point of view.

Some, including me, see the thread of potential and promise in the real world evidence posted so far, maintain curiosity about the series drogue idea, and want to see what careful, safety-minded  real world tests show.  What is the reasoned position for not finding out?   

  What is the reasoned position for not finding out?   

You're right, there is none. I can see useful applications in small surf or as a last ditch safety device, but.... My only concern would be that someone might read this thread and employ this tactic as their standard reentry and get themselves in trouble. Learning to read the sets, stalling and sprinting through the impact zone is an invaluable and even exciting experience.

Iconn4 on KFS http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6116019354/m/5491035913?r=4091078913#4091078913
posted:

“just saw this in the Not Yakfishing forum and thought it might better explain why I'm against having a lot of loose rope hanging around.

  “




My reply:

Fabulous video!  And a great addition to this discussion.

I am an inland flatwater guy with almost no surfing background, so please forgive the generic terminology I use trying to grapple with this stuff.  And please help pull apart and correct my tentative analysis, and answer the questions I pose if you have relevant experience.

Remember this is all primarily in the context of an exhausted, injured, or inexperienced kayaker faced with a surf entry challenge.  Strong, experienced surf-savvy folks may or may not have any benefit from a series drogue - that's another question.

The way the series drogue is supposed to work, as I understand it, is for the rope to be down in the water column acting to keep the boat stern first into the waves while allowing the boat to keep forward way that can be increased by paddling / pedaling or decreased by not paddling / pedaling.  You can still back paddle.

For kayaks the rope itself would be the "weight" keeping the individual drogue "cones" down in the water column, there is not anchor or other weight at the end of the rope.

So, if it works as advertised (and the point is to find out if it does, not to claim that it does) there would be:

(1) No loose rope (it would be below the waves acting as a stabilizing force), and,

(2) It would prevent the boat from being either:

(a) Pushed sideways to the waves and being rolled / maytagged (this is what was experienced by the Coast Guard in open ocean tests and by Stobbo and swellrider in the surf),or,

(b) Plunging over a wave crest and diving into a trough (submarining) or the beach (going endo).

If the open surf boats coming in the video coming in had been able to keep their sterns square to the waves, but mis-timed their approach, it does look like they might have filled with water as the series drogue would have let wave crests go past (effectively "pulling" them the into breaking wave crests).  A relatively well-sealed kayak would hopefully better survive this problem.

I can't quite figure out how a boat with its stern kept square to the waves would act once the bow hits the sand.  At first the series drogue, if it works as advertised (and the point is to find out if it does) would continue to stabilize the boat.  But:

1.  Because the series drogue is not a sea anchor or drift shoot, would it continue to come in with the waves?

2.  If it continued to come in after the bow hit the beach, would it become the dreaded loose rope, life-threatening, saltwater anaconda, or by that point be irrelevant to safety?

3.  Would the backwash of spent waves keep it active as a stabilizer, preventing it from coming in further?  That is, would it effectively "stop" until those in the boat pulled it up the beach and out of the surf zone?

Going to be interesting to find out from the guys out there testing it.

AlohaDan just posted a report of kayak surf landing aided by a small series drogue that he got from Bryan Glover of www.seriesdrogue.com, in a new reply in this thread:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5086057385/m/9141008492?r=7881049913#7881049913

AD adds his thoughts:

“My own gut feeling is that the max surf with this method would occur with wave heights that can sweep you out of the yak as it passes by with the drogue holding you steady. You eliminate the broach, but sufficient wave height can produce other problems.

Speaking of which where can one find a suitable beach for doing such testing?”

Yes it lessens the broach and probably the pitch-pole potential but it also pretty much guarantees that you will not get through the impact zone cleanly. This method forces you to be slowly dragged through breakers. This means is that the odds are good that you will likely get separated from your boat, which then gives you the opportunity to watch your boat get hammered while staying perfectly perpendicular to the waves as you swim in.

Because the series drogue is not a sea anchor or drift chute, would it continue to come in with the waves?

In all reality they are a series of small drift chutes. The point I think that you are missing is that boats and ships use these for one simple reason, they cannot avoid long periods of dangerous surface conditions. A sailboat cannot simply tack-off on a new bearing and quickly escape dangerous swells and rouge waves, they HAVE to ride it out. We, on the otherhand have the advantage of being able to sprint through the bad stuff, but drogues prevent this, in fact drogues force you to linger in the bad stuff. The only way I know how to traverse a break cleanly is with timing and a sprint.

That said, these may be usefull for keeping newbees square with the surf in small waves. But, the way I look at it is that if they are going to continue to paddle in the ocean they are going to have to learn to deal with surf. And learning how to time and when to sprint in small surf is a good place to start.

All your points are well-taken.  I appreciate your input and hope you will hang in with this discussion.  You may well be completely right when you report:

"The only way I know how to traverse a break cleanly is with timing and a sprint."

The questions remaining are:  is another safe way?  is it a better way in some circumstances or for some people? and is the series drogue that way?

I don't know the answers.  I look forward to learning them as the guys out there put this technology to the test.