Downrigger questions for the pros

This is only a theory of mine, but the traditional long rod with a big bend to take up slack is a pure myth from a kayak...especially when it comes to braid.  How much line does that big bend in the rod actually pick up?  2 maybe 3ft max?  Braid eliminates at least that much "bow" in my line. I prefer a stouter faster action rod in the 6 to 7 ft length so if the hook isn't set by the pull on the clip, coming tight to a stiff rod with braid surely will.   I know its a different game with barbless, but long soft rods only serve to make it harder for me to land the fish.  Besides, the kayak already gives me enough "give" that I rarely lose a fish due to slack line issues.

This is really interesting. I've been using a fairly stiff rod (8' length) and was thinking that I should get a more traditional salmon rod. It seems like there might be some benefit to a more limber rod when the salmon gets closer to the boat and it starts berserking. But, I hadn't thought about the initial hookup issue.

Anyways, great info---thanks for posting.

Absolutely true a longer limber rod will help when the salmon goes berserk.  But my experience has been that the longer and more limber the rod, it exponentially gets harder to net a fish.  How much error do you have given the width of your landing net?  Mine I'd say is 3 ft wide so call it 1.5 ft of error horizontally. Vertically the margin of error is smaller since the lip of the net relative to the surface, that distance is closer.    My shorter stiffer rods can control the exact location of where the salmon is when I go to net it.  A longer flexible rod will bend 2 feet worth easily in every direction.  But where I have had the greatest difficulty is getting the fish to drop into the net.  Unlike in most fishing, I try not to move my net when kayaking.  No scooping.  Lead the fish over the net, drop your rod tip, and lift the net.  But with the longer rods, even when I drop the rod tip, I don''t seem to drop it enough and the fish just skirts right over the top of the net.  Not sure if I am explaining my predicament correctly. 

I guess put another way, I don't think I have come anywhere near close to optimizing my set up.  But for me with barbed hooks, I use the reel's drag and kayak instead of a limber rod for sudden surges and I use the stiffer shorter rod to better control the fish at side of the kayak for better netting/gaffing/boca grips.   I don't use a limber rod for "light line" protection because I tend to use excessively heavy gear relative to many other folks I speak with (i.e. 65lbs braid with minimum 40lbs but typically 80lbs fluoro leader to bait or lure for even kings and cohos).   Strictly personal preference.  I can see how it might not work for everyone. 

With barbless hooks, I try to REALLy tire the fish out with a loose drag before trying to net it. When the fish rolls over on it's side, it's ready to be netted without a fuss.

I ordered myself a downrigger rod the other day. It's a Lamiglas Classic Glass, model CG 90 DR (9 foot, nice moderate action). Can't wait to try it out.

Even if I don't end up loving this rod for kayak trolling, it will be perfect for fishing from my uncle's boat up in Washington.

Just when I think it can't get any better, even more great info shows up on this thread. Thanks again to everyone.

Hope I'm not thread-jacking, but I've got one more question: What characteristics would you look for in your ideal reel (specifically, of course, for salmon fishing from a kayak using a DR)? I've got a Shimano Tekota 500 and I love it, except for one thing---the retrieve ratio is somewhat low (like 4.2:1).

After the fishing line pops off the DR, I give a few quick kicks of the pedals on my Hobie, which immediately takes out any slack. But even with that, I had one salmon charge directly at my yak and the line went completely slack. That probably only lasted for a couple of seconds, but it seemed like forever. The problem was that I simply could not turn the crank on my reel fast enough to keep up with the fish. I was sure I'd lost that one, but I did land it (it was hooked about as good as you could possibly hope for with a barbless hook). It seemed kinda miraculous at the time that it didn't get away. And I don't want to have to rely on miracles any more than is absolutely necessary...

Not a thread jack at all. Anything downrigger related is fair game.

As for downrigger reels, I fish lefty, so I'm pretty limited in my options for high quality levelwinds. I just picked up an Abu Garcia Record 6601HC. It's got a gear ratio of 4.7:1. I wish it were more like 5.2+, but such is life.

For whatever reason, every salmon I hooked into last year made a bee line straight toward the surface as soon as I hooked it. I'm hoping this Abu can keep up with them...

Abu Garcia C-3 5500 5.3:1 

The Aub Garcia C-4 5600 is a blazing 6.3:1
I'd like to try that some time

I've read some less than impressive reviews of the C-4, which is why I opted for the Record. Slower retrieve, but seems like a more solid reel.

I avoid high speed reels like the plague though its mainly because I use heavy weights and planers.  The less cranking power means its twice as hard to reel in a planer and a 11 inch flasher with a C4 than a C3.  Might be fine for downrigging applications though.  I can see the advantages of a high speed reel for barbless.

The other saving grace that I have found is while we all know slack line is a killer, the large flasher typically creates enough resistance when hooked that even if the line is slack from your rod to your flasher, the line never slacks much between the flasher and hook when the fish is running at you.  Still would avoid slack line as much as you can, but I probably give more slack line to fish than I should when I am trying to get the video rolling after a strike. It's rare I lose a fish in the scenario I described. 

I think this is the Lamiglass rod you are talking about.  Maybe not.  Notice on day two, the last two fish are NOT with that rod.  It's because I broke it on the second day of use.  Probably my fault, I was pulling planers with it and I am used to using much stouter rods.  It was a blast to use, but I would NOT use it for anything other than fun.  It was a PITA to control the fish by the kayak with the longer length and softer rod.  But once again I think it's personal preference.  If I was going to do something like that, i think I have more faith in my 4wt flyrod set up.  Still for downrigging, it seemed like it would work well. 

I've read some less than impressive reviews of the C-4, which is why I opted for the Record. Slower retrieve, but seems like a more solid reel.

I am surprised! 
Amazon reviewers rate it very high;
http://www.amazon.com/Abu-Garcia-Ambassadeur-Baitcast-Ball-Bearing/dp/B000CSQZJA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1420832134&sr=8-2&keywords=abu+garcia+c4

as well as Cabela's reviewers;
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Abu-Garciareg-C4-Round-Baitcasting-Reel/1677874.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dabu%2Bgarcia%2Breel%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=abu+garcia+reel&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products#BVRRWidgetID

Kardinal- We definitely do things a little differently. Those thrashing fish would have no business anywhere near my kayak. If needed, I even loosen my drag to get them away from the boat until they're good and ready. Once they're sufficiently tired, they roll onto their side and slide right into the net.

If I were using barbed hooks, I'd probably haul them in quicker, like you do.

What were you doing when that rod broke?

I've read some less than impressive reviews of the C-4, which is why I opted for the Record. Slower retrieve, but seems like a more solid reel.

I am surprised! 
Amazon reviewers rate it very high;
http://www.amazon.com/Abu-Garcia-Ambassadeur-Baitcast-Ball-Bearing/dp/B000CSQZJA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1420832134&sr=8-2&keywords=abu+garcia+c4

as well as Cabela's reviewers;
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Abu-Garciareg-C4-Round-Baitcasting-Reel/1677874.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dabu%2Bgarcia%2Breel%26x%3D0%26y%3D0%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=abu+garcia+reel&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products#BVRRWidgetID

The reviews I read were on Abu Garcia's website:

http://www.abugarcia.com/Abu-Garcia[emoji768]-Ambassadeur[emoji768]-C4-Round-Reel/1315358,default,pd.html

Kardinal- We definitely do things a little differently. Those thrashing fish would have no business anywhere near my kayak. If needed, I even loosen my drag to get them away from the boat until they're good and ready. Once they're sufficiently tired, they roll onto their side and slide right into the net.

If I were using barbed hooks, I'd probably haul them in quicker, like you do.

What were you doing when that rod broke?

That's what makes fishing awesome.  More than one way to get to some satisfaction.  I have an odd take on a lot of things...my friends tell me every day.  It would be a huge mistake to think anything I offered up was a definitive truth for anyone other than me.  My feeling towards landing a fish ( and I meat fish more than "fun" fish) is that the longer a fish is on the line, the more opportunities it has to get off.  And as a meat fisherman, I tend to try and dispatch my fish as soon as possible versus playing it out longer.

I've only used barbless hooks on a few occasions.  I actually loved them because they helped me catch a LOT more fish.  But that's because the bite was hot and it was easier releasing fish and getting back into the water.  I do recall being very surprised at how few fish didget off and these were in-river cohos that were very aerial.  But I'd think (and once again i have very little experience with barbless) that I would be inclined to bring them to net much faster. 

Great thread, great insights!!!  it's above freezing today after a week of 5 deg F weather.  Hopefully I can get out tomorrow!!!

Indeed. Many ways to skin a cat. And they all put fish on the table.

I'm fishing for fun; the meat is just a very welcome bonus.

Thanks for all the good info and ideas.  Trying to figure out how I will handle this years season. 

I know a lot of Salmon were caught using deep six to get the lure down without downriggers.  But for those who have used both does the catch increase with a downrigger.  And if so and if there is an increase in catch does it help enough to make the extra gear and weight not such a big deal. 

Also I would like some more info from Tote.  What setup are you using for remote retrieval.  I don't want to carry full sized battery but my arm has been randomly giving out on me and may have to look at electric options where available. 

I have a c4 and I prefer the c3 the higher speed you end up horseing your fish without realizing it.

DG - I've had good luck using Double Deep Six, and using 2-3 lb lead balls on sinker releases.

I've made the personal decision not to (intentionally) drop any more lead on the ocean floor, so that leaves me with mooching, downrigger trolling, and DD6 trolling. From my experience, the DD6 works pretty decently down to about 30-40 feet. Below that, I'm just guessing where my bait might be.

I still plan to keep a DD6 on board for when the fish are shallow (a surprising big percent of the time, actually). When the fish move deep, I want to be able to stick a bait in their face with some precision. That's why I'm adding the downrigger to my toolbox.