Humbled by god's creation," Bean Hallow" 10/20/06

Hobie Cat does do inspections and leak testing. That is not the point here. We are talking about in-the-field testing for issues that may crop up from a wide variety of causes.

We are talking about in-the-field testing for issues that may crop up from a wide variety of causes.

....and it looks like the "buyer" is the one that's doing the field testing.

Well... the buyer is the one that will actually use the product right? So, if a problem (this also includes damage from freight, transportation, storage, rocks, poorly installed accessory hardware or other of a number of reasons) does occur... the in-the-field leak detection is used.

This issue is not one of a missed inspection by the factory. The product was not leaking from the factory.

Well... the buyer is the one that will actually use the product right? So, if a problem (this also includes damage from freight, transportation, storage, rocks, poorly installed accessory hardware or other of a number of reasons) does occur... the in-the-field leak detection is used.

This issue is not one of a missed inspection by the factory. The product was not leaking from the factory.

Matt, the Outfitter was stock. No add ons ect. As far as how I take care of my equipment please look at my background. I maintained my equipment or suffered the consequenses which could be fatal. So please do not go there...

Frank,

No one is "going there". We accepted the dealers interpretation of the hull leak. We have already replaced the hull. No one is suggesting you abused the boat in any way and caused the problem.

My only purpose in this thread is to correct information presented by various users here. My reply and mention of the leak test idea is part of that. That is for general informational purpose.

Frank,

After reading your story and some of the ensuing dialog, I feel compelled to add my two cents.

First, I'm glad everything turned out OK.  The self aggrandizing about your "postulated" background aside, it was a great story and an excellent potential lesson.

I was a little confused about the "Outfitter" letter though.  You implied that if Hobie had sent you a copy of this letter, the whole matter would have been avoided.  Specifically, in your Dec. 4 posting, you said "If I had known about this leak problem I would have never put myself or others at risk".  But in your Oct. 20 story, you admitted launching in dicey surf at a "dangerous beach" with a serious leak that you already knew about, and had to previously use your bulge pump to control.  To all appearances, you exercised incredibly bad judgement that almost got you and your boat mate drowned.

Which brings me to wonder whether you informed your boatmate, Phil, of the leaky hull you invited him to sit in.  Apparently you led your friend Eugene and his Father to believe that you were much more experienced than you in fact were.  Not only did you underestimate your peril, but you seemingly disregarded the safety of your friends.  What about all that training you were bragging about?  Perhaps you were a little misleading?

Speaking about misleading, let's get back to the letter over which you blamed Hobie for your problems.  Since you have a copy, please take a good look at it and explain to the forum where it says "Outfitter" anywhere in the letter.  In fact, it addressed two very specific models, neither of which are Outfitters or tandems of any kind!  So when Mr. Miller explained this as well as the intent of the letter, you got a little sanctimonious and threatened to post the letter yourself, as if to expose him.  Obviously you didn't, since there is absolutely nothing disreputable about Miller or anything secret about Mr. Skidmore's letter.  This letter has nothing to do with you or your kayak.  Furthermore, the drivewell problem has been a matter of open discussion in the Hobie forums since June.

Frankly, I'm amazed at how you spread false rumors about fictitious Outfitter problems, even to the extent in your Oct. 21 post of announcing that you had received "...acknowledgment that this problem was occurring in most of these Outfitters..."  a complete and utter fabrication or gross error.  So far, you haven't shown the backbone to admit that you were wrong to say the least.  You owe Hobie an apology, sir, for falsely maligning them, in spite of the full cooperation they have provided you.  In my opinion, you also owe this forum an apology for your fraudulent, sanctimonious and hypocritical behavior.


To the rest of this forum, I  sincerely apologize for any offense this may have caused.  I've been an avid Hobie user for years and try to stay abreast of current Hobie issues.  I have no association with the company, but have known Matt Miller for years and have the highest professional regard for him.  Hobie is by no means a perfect company, but in my experience, if they make a mistake, they make it right.  It appears that they have certainly done so for Frank.  Because that's rather uncommon in this industry is one reason why I've been a repeat customer.  The other is that (IMO) they make excellent (but not flawless), innovative equipment.   I find it disgusting that someone would try to turn a good company into a scapegoat to cover up their unwillingness to take responsibility for their own bad judgement.

Wow, interesting, I wonder how many more anchovy ringers are going to weigh in.   One post, no location. No contact info.  And this guy is questioning FRANK's honor? 

Amazing how the anchovy goes right into a personal attack.  Best defense maneuver?

Yeah, Frank's boat took on some water in  the previous go-out, and Frank judiciously took the opportunity to pump it out before making a potentially difficult landing (Lucky someone had a "bulge pump").  This was after 6 hours or so in choppy conditions, and the boat was quite "paddleable," even before the pumpout.  I know, I was there.  It's a testimony to Franks GOOD judgement that he chose to pump the boat before landing.  The previous leak rate was nothing at all like filling completely with water within the 1st 15minutes of a go-out.  A minor leak.  I also find no fault with Frank's judgement in using the boat, esp after conferring with the dealer who gave no indication it could be potentially dangerous.

The whole paragraph about putting people's lives in danger is hyperbole.  No way Frank could have accurately estimated "his peril" before the leak became catastrophic, unless someone warned him that such an increase in the leak could occur.  The dealer didn't do so.  Assumption from all was that the leak rate would remain stable and minor.  The boat at that leak rate was completely fishable and safe for a 5-6 hour go-out.

And after all, how would the dealer know?  Mr Miller states the leak was probably made catastophically worse by the section of brittle plastic giving way somehow, but neither the dealer nor Frank could be expected to predict that.  From what I've read, neither could Hobie techs, because the brittle plastic problem was either a unique situation or a very rare condition, not noted in their tech alerts?  At least that was what I got from all the back and forth? Or, the dealer 'sorta' knew about the leak from an employee's reference to it??  That would be 'sorta' negative on the dealer, I guess but not neccesarily on Hobie.
 
A little leakage is usually no problem.  My Prowler takes on a cup or so of water every go-out.  I expect it and the leak rate has remained stable for 2 years and at least a hundred go-outs..  Little more now and then when conditions are particularly rough, but so what?  boats leak a little.

Roadrunner's post is so antagonistic, I wonder what his real motivation is.

Who are you Roadrunner, where are you from?  Do you fish? Salt or fresh?  Or is this a one-time only drop-in anonymous sneak attack?  If so, you probably should have checked with your friend Mr Miller, he doesn't need that kind of support.  He seems like a pretty straight guy, though a bit beleagured since participating in this thread.  He's doing fine, though. 

I'll give the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you are a good guy with tons of friends and that we'd probably have fun fishing together. I only ask that you give the same benefit to our friend Frank, who is  a super fellow and  has no "postulations" whatsoever regarding his background. His background is what it is, and I'm proud to count him as my pal (and he doesn't "brag"). Any of Frank's background revealed on this board was done so in the course of telling a full story to us, his friends. This is our clubhouse.  I know Frank personally if only for a short while, and my estimation is that he is quite a gentleman, honorable, a very strong individual, and also quite modest.  Excellent judgement honed under fire.  He also has a matinee idol profile combined with a pixie-like charm, and I'll bet he's hell on wheels on the dance floor.  I do not know if he plays the harmonica, but if he does, I'm sure he's great! And his wife is gorgeous!

So, anyway.  Roadrunner welcome to the board, how was your last go-out, what did you fish for?  If you are in Nor-Cal, come on down to Santa Cruz.  We can fish for halibut together.  If not in Nor-Cal, get in touch if you come up.  I even have an extra kayak you can use if you need it, a paddler not a pedaler.  Seriously, welcome, but maybe talk about fishing next time.

To the rest of this forum, I  sincerely apologize for any offense this may have caused.

Roadrunner,

I, for one, don't desire or need you to defend my interests.

That you can so virulently smear someone's character without leaving any trace of your identity makes me wonder who is lacking backbone!

I still paddle a Revolution that my Outfitter was traded in for and then turned around  buying a second Kayak for my wife which is the Sport. But with that said these are calm water craft. Ponds, lakes and Rivers. I have and am trying to make the Revolution safer so the front hatch doesn't pop open when submerged but am looking at other Kayaks for ocean fishing.
I will tempt a bay launch tomorrow with the Revolution and I do think she'll perform fine. But I won't try another surf launch with the Mirage Sytem in place simply because it gets caught in the kelp.Another situation waiting to happen.
So fellas when you want to hookup to fish I am sure most of NCKA would love to fish with you I have found everyone to be very friendly. Frank

PS Will post how we did on the bay.

I have no association with the company

....whatever you say "mystery man"

scallen'

Thank you for your comments.

Obviously, news of this event had traveled far into anchovie-land.  It shares an excellent lesson and reminder about the unexpected, proper equipment and good headwork.  The only unfortunate aspect of the thread was the uncorrected dissemination of mis-information about Outfitter kayaks that caused needless concern from Outfitter owners and the insinuation that Hobie was hiding something from its customers.  This certainly got my attention.

Regarding Frank's mishap, I appreciate that he stepped forward to share it so that it can be life saving for others.  Additionally, he reminds us that carrying the proper equipment is vitally important.  Finally, he displayed outstanding courage and headwork that were essential to a happy ending.  These were my first impressions and were well said by many others.

The story was superbly written.  As I read it, I realized that I would likely fall short in the same situation and suffer the fate of so many anchovies -- fish bait.

As to my earlier post, I offered my two cents -- take it for what it's worth.  It could certainly be considered bad form; sorry again to those who may have been rightfully offended by it.  Any ensuing criticism is probably well deserved.

Frank, I wish you well, and hope you have better luck with your Revolution!

FYI Roadrunner is a well-known and frequent poster on the Hobie community website.  He has done many, many well thought out posts with photos documenting innovative ideas as well as problems with kayak rigging, Hobie Mirage drive performance, etc.  While a Hobie supporter, RoadRunner has pulled no punches in surfacing, documenting, and pressing for fixes where experience brought the need for them to light.

I did find RoadRunner's post suprising, the suggested conclusions were more provocative than seemed appropriate,  however logical.  I say both Frankfishing and RoadRunner should stand on the merits of their posts and neither one should have their character judged by a few posted words.  I encourage RoadRunner to participate in the NCKA community so that we can all get to know one-another; I know he has a lot to add.

The bottomline, however, is I salute Frankfishing for his courageous efforts in the water and in posting the episode.  The discussion, however it lurches one way and the other, is an extremely thought-provoking and valuable contribution.

Thanks.

Hey roadrunner:

Just read your reply post.  That's more like it, buddy! 

allen

ps I am serious about fishing together, just let me know.

In my opinion, you also owe this forum an apology for your fraudulent, sanctimonious and hypocritical behavior.

Says the guy with in his first post.....

Please.

It would behove you to actually understand the people in a forum before blasting them.  And maybe have the gonads to actually say who you are.

MolBasser

My suggestion is that logic is a powerful and seductive tool devoid of wisdom, so we should be gentle with each other as we ease into trying to learn the lessons offered by this situation.  Any conclusions that the boat was unsuitable, the kayaker was at fault, or anything else seem a bit premature and extreme to me.  Let's take our time to join in learning from this incident and treat our hypotheses as just that for a while.

Maybe we have some trained and experienced water accident investigator types out there who can lead us through an analysis?

I think the various online communities have enough collected wisdom to persevere through some preliminary, extreme opinions to learn the true lessons of this incident. Let's hang in there, be fair with one another, and address the suggestions that Hobie kayaks are not suitable for the conditions at Bean Hollow.

If they are not, then that is good to know. If they are, ditto. If suitability goes hand in had with water conditions, experience of kayaker, etcetera, then examining and compiling the relevant list of criteria is a great learning opportunity for the various kayaking communities.

Discussions:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5086057385/m/4781097003?r=3361054903#3361054903

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=5633&highlight=

http://topkayaker.net/cgi-bin/TopYakcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000200;p=0

Here is another kayak rescue incident to compare and contrast:

http://kfs.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6116019354/m/8401063332

http://www.nspn.org/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID5/451.html

I salute the kayakers involved in both incidents for sharing the candid details and for doing the right things to survive.  Good job, guys.

Let’s respectfully review both incidents for their lessons on what to do and what to avoid, without leaping to critical judgment.  Yes, you might have done something different, but what would you do if you involuntarily find yourself or someone you love in these situations?  Stuff happens fast on the water, let’s figure out the lessons offered by these incidents on how best to be prepared and react. 

Thanks.