Future AOTY Suggestion: Total Species Points

Thanks, Rob - I thought I did a good job of it.

Another good example if you plan on a catch picture and release.

example 2:

Not!

Hard to tell from the angle how the fishes mouth is.  One thing we look for is flared gills.  With your hands up in the gills, it's hard to tell.

-Allen

To say that's not a good example of measuring and photoing a 20 pound ling that was released is pretty lame, IMO. 

Maybe you should require a video of the fish being caught, measured and released.   

To say that's not a good example of measuring and photoing a 20 pound ling that was released is pretty lame, IMO. 

Maybe it is lame.   Nice fish.

The point I was making is "why post those up as a good examples?".  There are a lot of other pics that could/should be used that have less question marks associated with them.  Heck, even Craig's pic that Matanaska used as an example of a bad pic is better than the pics he used as examples of good pics.

-Allen

Alan,

Perhaps a false assumption on this thread is that it is easy to take a picture that meets the criteria.  I am of the belief it is not unless you kill. And even then apparently it isn't.

 I looked at the pics of the Stripers before I filleted him and thought, "yup good to go."  Of course i am looking at the pic on either a phone or 2.5" LCD screen with a glaring sun in the background.  Now in going back to look at them, I totally see what you mean.  I'll check my camera to see if I have more, but I I don't then eh whatever.

Then by your own admission people point out bad examples and good and you say they have them switched.  Clearly it is not as easy as you think.

If the premise is trust on these then what's with the intense scrutiny?  You said in the AOTY thread that people are purposefully pushing the limits.  Which is it, trust or pushing the limits?

Ultimately you and the AOTY judges have the final call.  I think the only thing the current rules breed is unhealthy obsession of others photos. 

I'll be honest I feel Robs comments are WAY out if line and show exactly what I am talking about.  Going through his photos I see the same issue he has with my Stripers present in his photos:  his black rockfish is mouth wide gills flared and his Koke you can see the jaw are not touching the Hawgtrough.

I bet I could go through every competitor and find similar issues.  To me this isn't about my Stripers or Rob living in a glass house, this is about poor rule choice.

But it's your game and sand box.  Do as you will!

i don't know what you all are fussing about. I've never had a single problem taking a picture of any fish entered into aoty, ever. nope, never once.

Perhaps a false assumption on this thread is that it is easy to take a picture that meets the criteria.  I am of the belief it is not unless you kill. And even then apparently it isn't.

Perhaps.

If the premise is trust on these then what's with the intense scrutiny?  You said in the AOTY thread that people are purposefully pushing the limits.  Which is it, trust or pushing the limits?

It's human nature for people not to trust each other when in competition with them.  The rules minimize the distrust.  The scrutiny is because if the rules are bent, then so is trust.  In a way, it protects all of us, participants and judges.  For the most part at least ...

Ultimately you and the AOTY judges have the final call.  I think the only thing the current rules breed is unhealthy obsession of others photos. 

I'll be honest I feel Robs comments are WAY out if line and show exactly what I am talking about.  Going through his photos I see the same issue he has with my Stripers present in his photos:  his black rockfish is mouth wide gills flared and his Koke you can see the jaw are not touching the Hawgtrough.

I bet I could go through every competitor and find similar issues.  To me this isn't about my Stripers or Rob living in a glass house, this is about poor rule choice.

I look at it as being about poor entry choice.  If it so obviously sucks, don't enter it.

-Allen

Bad photo "choice"?  I would say given the fact as to the confusion about what is a good example and what is bad plus the fact that every angler I looked at has similar issues with photos, I think it isn't bad choices, it's bad photo criteria.

Worst AOTY picture ever:



SaltyJim, we REALLY did NOT need to see your hairy legs!!! 

I think its a lot easier to look at the pictures and be objective when you're outside of the tournament completely.. Most people know I sign up every year but I don't really compete - heck I've not entered a single fish this year even though I've caught some that would count.  I've seen a few poor pictures, a few completely wrong species, but I figure that if it comes down to it that it would actually matter in the end, the committee will re-examine the pics and the fish to make sure that the integrity is there for the winner.

Allen's got a tough job - I wouldn't want it.  Cheers to you, Bossman - keep your chin up.  (in a natural position    )

Don't get down on it, Aaron - look at the $40 as a way to support the community.  If it messes with your psyche then counteract that by your own will - it's a good exercise in self awareness and growth.  What others do with it is up to them.  One part of trust is easy to discern - you can trust that some will make something different of it than what you, me or the judges intended.  So have fun with it, and see if you can come up with more and more refined criteria for what you feel that the Angler of the Year should be made of - I know I do that, and I think you're well on your way.   

I like your idea for keeping track of overall species as at least a side bet or different category of recognition, and I'd bet the wizard, BSteves, could craft it for our enjoyment.  Brian:  you out there? 

Just wondering how come the makers of the Hawg Trough aren't making longer versions?
 

Babymanben - I just dug up the 2008 discussion.  I now see this is a long standing issue.  Should've known when despite trying to play by the rules I was finding it difficult but apparently I was the only one.

Edit:  and by the rules I mean I was actually aware of the criteria and trying to meet it every photo when taken.

Bad photo "choice"?  I would say given the fact as to the confusion about what is a good example and what is bad plus the fact that every angler I looked at has similar issues with photos, I think it isn't bad choices, it's bad photo criteria.

What part about clear photographic evidence is unclear?

Let me list the most common bad pic types and you tell me if it's a bad photo criteria.

1) Tail NOT shown in pic.  Yes really.
2) Hand or lip gropper obstructing the lips.  Yes really.   
3) Lips not touching the end of a hawgtrough.  Yes really.

I suppose we could write the rules to specifically state NOT to do 1,2,3 ... but really, you think thats necessary?

I tell you, most of the time the person entering these types didn't even know there was a problem with the pics until it was pointed out and they immediate agree it's an issue and apologize.

Yes, we also get the mouth bordering open/closed fish entered, but not nearly as many as the above.  I agree this one can be unclear, but it was also intended to give a little slack for C&R fish.

-Allen

Polepole:  I think it is unfair of me to call the rules bad without providing what I would at least feel is a reasonable approach to this issue.  Instead of:

2. Photographic evidence of fish size (total length) against a measuring device must be provided. Fish must be measured in a natural position with either the mouth shut or slightly ajar. The mouth can not be pulled/extended open. Abuse of this rule will result in that entry automatically being disqualified. The AOTY committee will make final rules in this regard.

How about something like this:

2. 2. Photographic evidence of fish size (total length) against a measuring device must be provided. Fish must be measured in a natural position with either the mouth shut or slightly ajar. The mouth can not be pulled/extended open. We recognize that it may be difficult to get a picture of a fish with mouth closed, lips against the trough, and tail clearly against the measuring number, especially when CPR is practiced.  Please do your best to position lip grippers or game clips out of the way of photo. The AOTY committee will make final ruling on all questionable entries.  This ruling will focus on realistic photographic evidence versus submitted length and/or patterns of behaviors that suggest purposeful submissions with the intent to obscure the actual length of an entered fish.  Scrutiny on the top contestants at the end of the year, particularly on all scoring fish, will be significant so keep that in mind when entering all fish.

To me this makes sense.  I'd put my striper out there as an example.  That fish was measured at 25"s in the presence of two other NCKA members.  Is anyone doubting that fish is 25" or are they doubting my picture met a specific set of criteria?

OK I am done, it is what it is.  Lesson learned.  Kill all fish entered into AOTY.  Take them back to truck and take 10+ photos from all angles.  Because honestly, that will be the only way to avoid these discussions given current expectations.

How about something like "Saltwater Angler of the Year" and "Freshwater Angler of the Year" along with overall AOTY. That way, a guy who primarily fishes the ocean can have target to shoot for as well as a guy who prefers to fish freshwater. It would be as easy adding it up. Hell, I guess we could just do that ourselves. Just a thought.

Here is my suggestion for Sturgeon. Let's say you mark the 46" line of a tape measure with electrical tape or paint or whatever and do the same with the 66" mark and take close up pictures of your markings before heading out, to prove they are correct. Then you catch a keeper sturgeon and you take a picture of it and it falls anywhere within the "slot" that you've marked. You've just proved you caught a keeper, and you can still release it. I think you should be awarded 161 points, the minimum value for a keeper Sturgeon. That would be a way for guys to be able to catch and release Sturgeon and still get some kind of points for them. 

I would not fish for sturgeon from my kayak if all I could get was 161 points. I would be in a boat or on shore where it is comfortable and much easier to land one.

That's only if you have your mind made up that you are strictly CnR. You could totally go for more points by keeping a keeper. Just a suggestion. 161 points are better than none at all. I mean, it's a 70 point difference between top of the slot and bottom. It was the ATD sturgeon incident earlier this year that made me think of that.