G-Loomis so what?

Actually,
when we are talking about reaction bait rods (crankbaits, spinnerbaits, rip baits) Most will have a slower action (bending farther down the rod) to allow for a following fish to inhale the bait with less effort.
When we are talking about a trolling rod like for Trout or Kokanee the rod is usually made of a softer material like glass which will act as a shock absorber against the soft mouth of these species resulting is less "pull offs"
And again when we talk about a rod for jigs and worms they are made of a more sensitive material (graphite) to allow the angler to feel the slightest nibble as a fish picks the jig/worm off the bottom.
There are countless variations, but this is why it is best to match the gear to the technique. When the fish is chasing a bait he is following the lure and has to litterally suck it into his mouth so sensitivity is not as important as the proper flex (or give) of the rod. On the other hand when crawling a jig or worm across the bottom you may have a more slack line and the fish have to actually pick it up - in this case the more sensitive rod would be more desirable over a rod with a slower action as mentioned above.
It's also important to remember that the action and the sensitivity are two different factors of the rod that are commonly confused.
The action of a rod is how the rod bends:
A slow rod bends most of the way down to the handle
A medium rod bends about halfway to the handle 
And a fast action rod bends mostly on the top 1/4 
Sensitivity is measured by how much the rod can transmit the feeling of the lure from the line to the handle.
Hope this helps.

See Ya Soon,
Eric / Yakhopper

I agree with all your points, except that I cannot understand - and at this point disagree - with this one:

When the fish is chasing a bait he is following the lure and has to litterally suck it into his mouth so sensitivity is not as important as the proper flex (or give) of the rod.

I recall and old Homer Circle video made at one of the [then] crytal clear springs in Florida.  Bass after bass completely or partially inhaled crankbaits but Homer, a noted angler of his day, and his companion, also a well known angler in that day, never noticed a thing.  It is humbling to think how many fish do this to us!

Do not let the wily fish continue this.  Strike back with the most sensitive gear you can put in the field!

Sensitivity is measured by how much the rod can transmit the feeling of the lure from the line to the handle.
Hope this helps.

You really can't measure that too many variables plus how would you measure it. I think the only type of standard Sensitivity test you could do would have to be from the handle to the tip with a frequency generator and mic. over a wide range and avg. the results

I agree with all your points, except that I cannot understand - and at this point disagree - with this one:

When the fish is chasing a bait he is following the lure and has to litterally suck it into his mouth so sensitivity is not as important as the proper flex (or give) of the rod.

I recall and old Homer Circle video made at one of the [then] crytal clear springs in Florida.  Bass after bass completely or partially inhaled crankbaits but Homer, a noted angler of his day, and his companion, also a well known angler in that day, never noticed a thing.  It is humbling to think how many fish do this to us!


Do not let the wily fish continue this.  Strike back with the most sensitive gear you can put in the field!

My point was that flex is more important than sensitivity in this situation not that sensitivity wasnt needed. Any good quality rod should have a good amount of sensitivity no matter what the action other wise I would wonder about the true quality.
The original question was if a priemum rod was worth the money and the only way to truly answer that is to truley understand what makes a rod cost what it does. If you use only prime components and custome design each rod for it's particular use than you will be more likley to increase your catch. Of course the angler who buys these rods will likley have the experiance to truly understand the mechanics of fishing and will be more serious than the average guy unless tou just have money to burn).
Earlier someone compaired rods to cars and driving abuility etc.
Imagine a chevrolet small block - If you just got your license you probably will be ok with it the way it came from the factory
If you are a drag racer you probably want to add a blower with custom pistons and add nitro.
On the other hand if you want to take on nascar that blower would be a bad idea.
Just as a fishing rod these motors are being custom built for a specific need and in doing so the benifits and cost can be justified for the outcome.

First, thank you for your posts.  It is fun and informative to discuss this stuff.

To return to the fray:

I agree with all your points, except that I cannot understand - and at this point disagree - with this one:

When the fish is chasing a bait he is following the lure and has to litterally suck it into his mouth so sensitivity is not as important as the proper flex (or give) of the rod.

I recall and old Homer Circle video made at one of the [then] crytal clear springs in Florida.  Bass after bass completely or partially inhaled crankbaits but Homer, a noted angler of his day, and his companion, also a well known angler in that day, never noticed a thing.  It is humbling to think how many fish do this to us!

Do not let the wily fish continue this.  Strike back with the most sensitive gear you can put in the field!

My point was that flex is more important than sensitivity in this situation not that sensitivity wasnt needed. .

As I recall, the "more flex" theory for moving bait / lure fishing is threefold:  first, because fish strike a moving bait / lure with more force than a non-moving bait / lure it helps to avoid hooks tearing out if you use line and rods that have more give or spring in them to act as shock absorbers; second, that by using a line and rod that have more flex your "bubba set" reaction that could tear the lure / bait away from a fish is muted by those same shock absorbing factors; and third, that a more springy setup sets the hook for you. 

My experience with these arguments began when some felt graphite rods were too stiff [and maybe had done so before my time when steel rods and then fiberglass rods were introduced].  Many of us experimented by returning to fiberglass rods, or part graphite and part fiberglass rods, for crankbaiting and trolling.  Other rounds of these arguments surrounds how and when to best use relatively elastic monofilament lines as opposed to relatively stiff "super-braid" lines.  I do not think there is enough science to end these debates, especially given the time-honored traditions of entertaining verbal disputation among fishing folk. 

What I think is that many would agree you want to fish with an outfit [rod, reel, and line] "balanced" to suit the characterisitcs of your prey, particulary the "hardness" of their mouthparts.   An outfit for, kokanee, or trout, with their relatively soft mouthparts, is more successful if balanced to reduce quick, strong, interactions with fish to lessen forces that might tear hooks out of their mouthparts.  An outfit for bass of all kinds, with their relatively hard mouthparts, is more successful if balanced to produce quick, strong, interactions with fish to increase forces that might help hooks penetrate into their mouthparts.

Kokanee specialty outfits can include light, stretchy line;  smooth, light drag systems in reels; and rods which flex easily and evenly in a parabolic arc even through their handles as you ease a fish gently and slowly through the water toward the net..  Bass specialty outfits can include no-stretch line; strong or tightened-down drag systems, and rods that do not bend much when derricking 5-pounders through the air into the boat.  You folks probably all know these things and I set them out just so we are on the same page.

It is my experience and opinion that in all these situations you are best served by a more sensitive rod of the appropriate weight and action simply because you can detect more fish sooner.

Modification:  It is not just fish that more sensitive rods allow you to detect, but also: the type of bottom, cover, and structures; the current line; when your lure or bait picksup an inanimate object like a leaf or stick; or when you bait or lure fouls itself with hook tangles, etcetera.   





 

thanks for all the great info guys. I'm learning more with every post.

Sensitivity:  You want it in every rod, and a quality rod will have it, you need to "feel" it all.   Love this.

Action: Choose the action most suited to the species and type of fishing - less clear, seems to be more debate here.  I do see some basics though. 

Length: Still not clear on when length comes into play.

Line type: Still wondering when an application calls for flouro (don't like the environmental impact), mono, braid, super line - I know the G-Loomis trout rod and Stradic CI4 were built with the Power Pro microline in mind.  These new form of braid lines seem interesting. 

Category rods: "drop shot rod" trolling rod" etc - seems manufacturers tried to take the difficulty out of the above elements by creating rods they claim work best for certain presentations - I don't really trust this that much - it's the sales/marketing in me telling me this is to their favor, not mine often.

Overall: any rod can catch fish, just as any working car gets you from A-B, but some cars do it better, depending on whether A-B is a drag circuit, NASCAR track, Off-Road mountain, or freeway - choose accordingly for best results, but all will get you some, or most, of the way.  I was on the lake recently and saw a guy take a 10lb or so catfish, mid-day on a trout rod, using powerbait, so it can work anyways, question is consistency and performance versus time spent.   

I have a much stronger understanding of the gear involved relative to skill/time invested/application/quality.  Amazing thread - a real testament to the quality of the community here and the talent/experience in the group.

Looking forward to leaning more.

I have been posting perhaps a bit too much.  So let me make way for others in the brain trust, after briefly blathering on again.

Longer rods have more space for manufacturers to create smooth but distinct  transitions between butt, middle, and tip section actions / flex to create overall combinations of action / flex that may more closely suit what you want in a given rod..

Also remember that a longer rod tends to cast farther and will also take up more line on a hookset where a shorter tends to cast a little more accuratley.
This thread can go on for pages as ther is a lot of info avail about rod construction and each specific use.
I also have been posting a bit more than I probably need to so i'll let the rest take it from here.

See Ya Soon,
Eric / Yakhopper

Personally, I don't think you guys have been posting too much at all. Very interesting and helpful.

Ben

Sensitivity, yeah its good for most stuff you'll do. Not sure how much it matters when trolling, don't see it there but I don't troll a whole lot so someone else should chime in.

Action - right on the dot. Very application specific, and plenty of debate even so - we fishermen just love to agree on everything 

Length - I'd say application specific as well. For distance casting from the beach for example, 10-11ft rods are considered standard. The ability to toss relatively heavy plugs a good distance can be needed, and extra length can help keep your line out of swell, work a plug, etc. On a boat, casting distance is usually not as important and the ability afforded by improved leverage via shorter length to turn a fish can be important. A shorter rod helps you put the heat on a fish - a longer length puts the heat on you. All of this is predicated by the presence/absence of heavy cover, size of the target species, techniques used, etc. I really wouldn't know, but I'd guess length is not a major consideration from a yak. A shorter length would afford improved leverage and be alot more handy in cramped quarters.

Overall, yes. But specialized gear tailored to your purpose will definitely help you catch more fish, if you know what you're doing.

http://www.tackletour.com/reviewchimanostradicci4.html

I'd guess length is not a major consideration from a yak

It's convenient to have a rod long enough to move the fight (or a hung-up rig) to the other side of the yak. Given our seated position, too long could be disadvantageous in landing fish -- 7' - 8' feet?? I get buy with 6 1/2' rods as well.

Ben

I would have to say my main concern in rod length is the same as Fishfarmer's.  Having had the best fight so far with a sixteen pound salmon on 12# line on my revo.  it was great to be able to control the fight from one side of the yak to the other with my 7'6" Ugly stick.  Once again, a trolling combo Okuma Athena with 12# line on a MH 7'6" Ugly stick, pulling a chartruese silvertron spinner with 1 oz. ball weight.--length matterred in this case!----Jeff

For freshwater I use 6 1/2' - 7' rods for casting and 7-71/2' for trolling. For casting, shorter rods have more accuracy, longer rods have more distance. Fast action rods are better for casting, moderate action is better for jigging with braid and trolling crank baits.

For saltwater I use 7-7 1/2' rods. 8' for jig tossing. The whole thing about long rods are better on kayaks because you get your line around bow easier is over-rated IMO. If you do hook a big fast mover that swims under your yak, you can lean forward and submerge the top half of the rod underwater and the fish will turn the boat.