creek fishing boat

Thanks BC
I was hoping that you would jump in on this.
Please take comfort that Im aware of how sketchy this is. Im not even sure it will work, but it has inspired me to re strengthen my fundamentals, so if it does, ill be ready.  If it doesnt, ill still be a stronger paddler.
Im planning on many hours of rolling the boat around in the lake and multiple lazy rivers trips like the SanJuaquin and the Knights Ferry to Orangeblossom stretch of the Stanislaus. Then after Ive gathered some skill, ill move to streams like Lee Vining, Green, Robinson, and the Walkers. After that    we will know more about whats possible.
I would have totally agreed with you on the safety issue until I started fishing a small SOT with a drift anchor. After I gained some proficiency I started to believe that this can be done safely.
I really do appreciate your concern and wisdom. And any other advice/instruction is always welcome.
I should confess.
Even though we havent had the chance to meet on the water and you havent witnessed paddle in hand, I had hoped a WW boater would be just a little more supportive.
You have seen what I have seen    and you know what Im hunting.

I'll support you in whatever you want to do... kayaks are fun and fishing is fun... together = superfun.  I'm just very aware of the risks and very cautious.

It sounds like you know as well as I do that once the water starts moving, even without ropes, anchors, and fishing gear hanging off the kayak, shit can go to hell in a handbasket extremely fast.  I was a first responder to a seive entrapment on the class IV Lobin run on the North Fork of the Feather this past August that resulted in a fatality and yeah, I'm jaded.  Pulling limp, lifeless, pale body from the water that a half hour before was a vivacious strong beautiful women is not something I ever want to do again.

Even when everything is perfect, a dynamic moving water environment is a place to be respected.  Sounds like you respect the risk and that's great!  Just never forget that when a person loses their airway they can't "tap out" and rarely do they get a second chance.

If you haven't taken a swiftwater rescue class I would strongly encourage taking one as it will open your eyes to the myriad hazards on the water and provide a framework to train and behave to mitigate much of the risk.

...................... If you haven't taken a swiftwater rescue class I would strongly encourage taking one as it will open your eyes to the myriad hazards on the water and provide a framework to train and behave to mitigate much of the risk.

I would be interested in taking such a class - price may be an obstacle, what does it cost?

My life and my friend's lives are worth the cost of this course ($250).  In fact, I refuse to paddle anything above class III water with people who have not taken SWR.

http://www.sierrarescue.com/index.php?option=com_courses&catid=1&Itemid=47#6

Here are a few early concepts.
Its clearly influenced by the old gauntlet project from the Mini-X.
I havnt decided whether to go with the ABS or the Flexo, maybe both, but it will most likely be encased in shaped mini cell. The minicell will be formed for a lower profile and to support and protect the tube. Very little of the tube should be exposed.
Still a long way to go with alot of problems to solve.

Great mock-up Terry, now I am getting it. If you used PVC conduit, it can be formed to the shape you are seeking with the use of a heated trough type appliance (Hitbox) that electricians use to make custom bends it with careful (to limit deformation) use of a heat gun .  Unless the flex was supported more often the bends (bellies) might hinder deployment from increased drag.

When you write that very little of the tube will be exposed....are you planning on installing all but the two ends inside the hull? If that is the case, three pieces of conduit will achieve that, whereas if it is deck mounted, one formed piece could be used.

Nice cart BTW for the Tarpon....

I was thinking the same use smaller PVC and rope and you could use a clothes line tensioner ala Dino Snare on the end. They have a wide variety of angles if you don't want to bend.

In current with the kayak at anchor, the effect on a whitewater boat of a downward/rearward resultant vector that is connected to the top/rear of the kayak, followed by water piling up on the stern, will make the boat extremely unstable.  That can be decreased to a point by using a longer anchor lead and/or connecting the lead as low as possible, but not eliminated.  My background in whitewater kayaking and in fluid dynamics as a degreed engineer tells me that a whitewater kayak so anchored in current will bob unpredictably side-to-side (like a bass plug) until it ultimately flips and planes right to the bottom.

You can demostrate this to yourself with a scale toy kayak model, some string, and a few inches of moving water in a ditch.

If you're set on trying this, trim the boat as weight-forward as possible as you will be able to delay the amount of time it takes to load the rear of the boat enough to cause a flip.

I still subscribe to the "simplest is better" line of thinking... catch an eddy out of the current and you won't have to worry about the ensuing yardsale.

Thanks guys
J
Im going to look into the PVC conduit and possibly make the tube a smaller diameter where only the rope will be traveling. Alot will depend on how much friction is going to be created in the tube and how it effects ops.
 
If I had the stones to cut holes into this boat Id try to run everything below deck but Im not that confident in the project  yet. So, Im forced deck side.

Only the section of 2"ABS containing the anchor and the cam cleat end should be exposed. The tube structure will be in a minicell "case" then attached to the outside hull.

Nice cart BTW for the Tarpon....

functional and then some

you could use a clothes line tensioner ala Dino Snare on the end.

M
I ran with this one! and you were scheduled for a big hug!
then I found that I would have to keep tension on the release mech for the rope to continue out when "the situation" goes down.
It has to be a quick release and then both hands on the paddle to roll.
no hug for you.

In current with the kayak at anchor, the effect on a whitewater boat of a downward/rearward resultant vector that is connected to the top/rear of the kayak, followed by water piling up on the stern, will make the boat extremely unstable.

Ive tried to soften the effect of this hydrodynamic issue by cutting more than half of the weight off of the anchor and going with a chain hoping to distribute the weight more evenly than the pyramid style.

a whitewater kayak so anchored in current will bob unpredictably side-to-side (like a bass plug) until it ultimately flips and planes right to the bottom.

Another boater agrees with this "flat fish" analogy. If I can work hard enough to get this done, we are going to recreate this scenario in a "controlled" setting with "the team" at the ready (next month). Good judgement on when to use the anchor should prevent this from happening very often. All I can do is be prepared to bust moves when it does.

That can be decreased to a point by using a longer anchor lead

I need help with this
Are you suggesting that the shaft holding the chain anchor be extended?
It seems like it would be more vulnerable to catching on structures.
I may not be following you correctly
thanks BC

I understand that the SOT would seem to be the "safer" ride for fishing creeks on anchor. But if you find your anchor snagged and your boat has signed you up for swimming lessons?  well, your swimming and your boat is snagged upstream.
I may have a chance to roll back up, release the anchor, or even cut the rope if I have to, and still stay with the boat. After my roll I can try to retrieve the anchor on better terms.
only time, testing, and work will tell
but if this works? it might help kayaks using anchors have cleaner rope free decks.
I know,   its a giant IF

How about slotting out the entire top of the molded conduit.  If the boat flipped, the line would release right out the slot and pop right out of the cam cleat.

I dont want the anchor/rope to be released everytime I roll over. I want the chance to recover and continue. But I did consider the mini cell having that slot cut across the top to allow the system to "break away" under stress but not under the pressures of normal ops.

If the boat flipped, the line would release right out the slot and pop right out of the cam cleat.

your right about the cam cleat. It will pop right out under pressure.
not sure if thats a good thing
something to watch

I definitely want to be there for the test run to see if this thing works. And no one has to worry, if the anchor fails and Terry takes a bath I'll be there to help........... by taking lots of pictures to share with everyone!   

Okay you sold me on that old gurney as a kayak stand. It's at about the correct height, it's not that wide and you can move the boat around with ease. Good work.

And the snow mermaid was classic. It was up to you to bring some "art" to the Riviera. I wonder if Bijou tried to have his way with her?   

I need help with this
Are you suggesting that the shaft holding the chain anchor be extended?
It seems like it would be more vulnerable to catching on structures.
I may not be following you correctly
thanks BC

No, I was suggesting that a longer rope would make a more obtuse angle between the kayak and the water to address the stability issue.

But, you're correct that a longer rope will increase the tangle potential. 

Your fighting a balance between stability, safety, ease-of-use... as soon as the first bit of kit was added to the deck of a whitewater kayak you lose ground rapidly on all three points.

Again, IMHO, the solution to your quest will only be revealed after you lose some gear and take a swim.  Simple is better.  Less is mo'better.

I definitely want to be there for the test run to see if this thing works.

I definately want you to be there, but I really wasnt planning on you being the one holding the camera.
I was thinking that you, Jebidiah Tubbs, and the PolarCat would be in the water either playing safety or hanging on to the anchor making things difficult for me. We will let photo girl handle the documentation. Still, all of this hangs on whether I can finish it in time for that trip.  Its going to be even tougher now that the new haunts are producing fish.

Bijou wasnt a big fan of the snow or the mermaid, but he misses you. You should come visit before we head down there.

Hydro, you asked for my two cents and I'm more of a lurker than poster these days but I'll add a point or two if it helps the discussion. When I think Whitewater creekin I think 'steepcreekin' with helmets, faceguard, elbow pads and a team of bros watching each others backs. I think backcountry wilderness with rugged terrain and continuous gradient drops that allow little time to relax and fish. Your creeks are probably much tamer than what I have in mind but as far as kayakfishing goes i've seen my share of whitewater while chasing salmon and steel. Up here we have the southfork and mainfork Smith, the Southfork and main fork Trinity, The Klamath (Big K)  the Upper Eel and the lesser known but quite gnarly Cal salmon. I generally avoid anything over class 3 when fishing except when making a multi day trip out of it and even then I just line my boat through the rapids or portage. I use a big ol x-factor and it's beastly going through minor rapids and swiftwater. My boat has an anchor and mount but the thing gets stowed if I go through anything of significance. I will deploy above or below a rapid but never in swiftwater. I'm a pro yakker, I do this for a living but I'm paranoid as hell when it comes to my anchor. I'm like BC in that i'll fish from the eddies or work my plug from the rod holder while I back paddle (prefered technique). When fishing rivers you have to make like a driftboat and use the same techniques and boating skills. A creek by nature is to steep and narrow for the same style of fishing, you're better off eddying out and fishing from the bank but like I said my creeks are probably not like your creeks.

In essence it's as much about the paddle and your skill level as it is the boat you have or how you have it rigged up. An anchor has it's place but in my opinion it plays an almost insignificant role in catching fish in moving water. I wouldn't waste to much time trying to convert a white water boat to the task. Others may strongly disagree and I'm certainly not one to brag about the limited steel I've caught from a yak but I have had a lot of practice at it in waters bigger than most have tried. Nothing can substitute for experience. My advice is to go and catch a fish in moving waters first and think about the rigging while you're out there. Necessity is the mother of invention.