no really, what about floatation foam in your kayak?

As much as we all like to be HE-men around here, some things are just beyond your control.  Don't assume you have control over everything, even your own body.  I remember a time when my calves cramped up pretty severely while swimming out/in from a scuba dive.  At that point I was pretty much paralyzed in the water.  It's a good thing I had a BC to keep me floating until the cramp relaxed.  I do consider myself in pretty good shape and capable of self rescue from just about anything, but in this case, my body just wouldn't do it for me.

-Allen

a few more data points.

1. a full wetsuit, of the 4/3 variety and above, does float you great in salt water, you can just rest and you'll float
enough to breathe without much effort. It's real noticable when you surf in tropical water and
no longer pop up like a cork on a wipeout, but have to swim to the surface.

2. A lot of surfers are surprisingly bad swimmers. A lot are surprisingly good swimmers, but some depend on their
boards for flotation. I've seen some long time surfers kiss the shore after their leashes got snapped and they
had to swim/float in.  So I'm not surprised Ocean Beach SF has claimed a few lives. It is a burly place.

3. The tow-in surfers sometimes use PFD's these days, especially the tropical water dudes like on maui.

There are some safety things that are knee-jerk, like "wear your pfd", but other stuff is not knee-jerk, like don't
paddle out in 52 degree water without some kind of thermal protection. The knee-jerk know-it-all
regurgitated advice rubs me the wrong way sometimes. I guess that is my insecurity. or something.

Scwafish, I think the perception is that SOT's are for playing at kayaking and real kayakers that need flotation would
be in an expensive touring kayak.

But the kayak fishermen like bluekayak push the limits a bit and it's good to know that he
adopted touring kayak flotation solutions.  It's still telling that no kayak fishing site or sit on top maker
offers flotation assist for sale.

This tells me that the industry is not really addressing this need or the fact that the SOT's will be used in fairly
extreme conditions. KUDOS to you for poking them a bit.  Until you
have success it's sit in side bags, pool noodles and expanding polyurethane foam.

J, I just find it odd that you are more concerned with a shark attack than with becoming incapacited in the water. The statistician in my head can't wrap around that one.  Not a lot of good stats out there but I found these in a quick google search:

"In 2001 in Wisconsin, 21 people died in boating accidents, and 10 were in a canoe, kayak or other non-motorized boat. I’m sure some deaths were nearly self-inflicted through inexperience, but isn’t that all the more reason to wear a life-vest?" - http://www.commanderbob.com/art44.html

"Of the 18 people who died in boating accidents in New York last year, 13 drowned, according to a report by the state Office of Parks, Recreation and Historic Preservation.... About half of the boating deaths involved canoes and kayaks, according to the report."

http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2005/06/04/noo5.html

Compared to the one reported death due to GWS attack on a kayaker in the 100 year history of Pacific GWS attacks by logic filter blows a gasket. 

More propaganda...

1. The US Coast Guard report 071-01 reveals: "Canoes and kayaks have by far the highest fatality rates per million hours of exposure (.42) as any other boat type". In use hours, canoes and kayaks have a far higher death rate than the deadliest vehicles: Ford/Firestone had 200 deaths 1993-2000, but these vehicles were far more numerous and were driven far more hours daily. Canoes and kayaks are far fewer, and are not paddled daily! They are much more deadly than any car when used.

2. "A total of 105 canoeists and kayakers drowned in 1998. Canoes and kayaks have the highest fatality rate of all boat types ñ double the rate of personal watercraft and 4 times higher than open motorboats." (Before the Subcommittee on Coast Guard and Maritime Transportation of the U.S. House of Representatives, May 15, 2001, BOAT/U.S.)

3. Canoes and Kayaks are a very tiny but very deadly industry. National Marine Manufacturers Association: "Canoes and kayaks are almost 15 % of all US Boating Fatalites, but only 3.5 % of all boating participants. (Actually much less than 3.5 % since this figure includes inflatables, dinghies, rowboats, etc.)"

4. Canoes and kayaks are statistically the easiest means (in use hours) to kill citizens. Canadian Coast Guard, Office of Boating Safety, August, 1994, (over 500 Canadian deaths since.):

from - http://www.sponsonguy.com/ this guy is selling sponson's so he is calling out the bad stuff...

I wear a helmet when I snowboard, not because I think I'm going to crash and hit my head.  I wear it because of all the other crazies on the mountain that are much more likely to run into me.  I wear a lifejacket for similar reasons.  Like I said before, it is the circumstances that are beyond my control that I'm more scared of.  And if I knew what all those circumstance were, well, I supposed I'd be in control then, but I don't.

-Allen

hey all!
 I just finished adding the noodles to my boat, I got them at the dollar store. I have added some along the sides as well as built a "bulkhead" out of some pieces cut to fit in between the interior of the boat. It allows the water and air to pass through but will stop my gear from packing in the back of the yak. All pieces were cemented into place with goop to hold them firmly but removable for the day they make something to go in there!

Bill, the key is that statistics don't apply to the individual only to groups.

the individual can be far from the statistical average.

This is why stereotyping is bad. Cause people apply statistical averages
to the individual.  Now if you really are dealing with a group, like an
insurance company you can do it. But if you are renting a house,
or interviewing applicants for a job, it's unfair to apply statistics to
the individual. In fact it's even illegal.

However if you think you are close to the average in some way, then
sure, use the statistics to evaluate risks.

In my case, I must be in the top .01% of water capable people in the country.
cause there are a lot of people that can't even swim. I'm no laird hamilton, but
still I'm way off the middle of the bell curve.

So need for a PFD for me for that reason for me is low.

this is a case of the statistical average not applying to the individual.

But I'd agree that I'm more likely to die by being hit by a boat than by
being hit by a shark. But then I should wear a helmet, not a pfd.
And then I would die of dorkiness. 

good try, but back to the drawing board for you wilECoyote! 

I do think that for certain people (me) who are either kayaking or surfing
and have few other risk taking behaviors, the relative risk of shark attack is
higher. I would not go so far as saying I actually think I'm at real risk or any
more risk than the rest of you. But relative risk-wise, perhaps.

jmairey,

You're skewing the statistical set.  You may be above average in the general population, but if you restrict the set to kayakers, that may not hold.  Let me give a very concrete example.  I'm an engineer.  When I go to work, I'm pretty sure I am well above average fitness wise than almost all the other nerds there (well, except for 2 people there who are registered for this years Primal Quest).  When I get together with a group of kayakers, I'm shot back down to being average, at least in that set of people.  So I think you've chosen the wrong group against which you measure yourself.  And in this case the group you should be measuring yourself against (kayakers!) is the same group for which Bill is providing stats.  Hence it applies to YOU!!!

Anyways, this is one of those conversations that really requires a few beers to really get to the bottom of it.

-Allen

Does anyone know if Ono Grill caters funerals? 

Yeah I don't even drink and I feel the need for more beer! 

J, get over the head bonk idea. Lots of things can take you from super water dude to floating meat sack. Let me list a few examples:

- Previously un-diagnosed or rapid onset asthma attack. I almost drowned while surfing due this

- bad reaction after getting stuck by a rockcod

- food poisioning from that hole in the wall you ate at late last night

- heat exhaustion

- sticking a hook in a bad place

- stick a gaff in your leg, remove achilles

Now combine any of the above things with a fall out of your yak and you are in some serious trouble. Since your are a low fat kind of guy when you fall out you are going to sink quickly and it is going to take me a while to get off my PFD to rescue you! 

jmairy,  this is going to sound a little jerky, but I don't know how to make it come out any other way. I'm 51 now.  I've been surfing the northern California coast since i was 18.  I surfed exclusively at OB in SF for over 15 years - before I even thought about kayaking.  I was one of those guys that practically cried when I made the beach after my leash busted on a real big day.  You know what?  I would have given every cent I owned to be wearing a PFD on the swim in.  PFDs never caught on with paddle in surfers because you just can't paddle with one on.  Do you ever see images of the tow in guys without one?

Once again, not trying to show off, just make a point:  I've been scuba, freediving, surfing, kayak guiding, and just kayaking on this coast for 30 years.  In that time there's not been a single instance where I've even seen a shark.  However, I've had a number of occasions where I thought I or someone in my crew could drown.  In all of those instances I was either relieved that people had a PFD on or was concerned that I or they didn't.  When you're way out at sea, a wetsuit (even a five mil surf suit) will not keep your head above water when you're suffering from exhaustion. When you're being pounded in the rocks, you need the extra floatation because your relative buoyancy is lowered in whitewater, with all the air mixed in. You're a surfer; you know this.

Sorry, don't mean to piss you off but i think its kooky to paddle out in Northern California without either a wetsuit or PFD.

BTW, the sudden asthma attack Bill pointed out happened to a guy I was guiding after he fell off his boat trying to surf a wave.  His PFD saved his life.

In that time there's not been a single instance where I've even seen a shark. 

That didn't stop you from scaring the pee out of us when we were two miles out  ...thank god it was a humpy!

Keep in mind that back in MN there's going to be about 100,000 canoe trips this spring when there's still snow on the ground.  And not one of them will be wearing a wetsuit or any kind of 'in water' thermal protection.  One april we barely made it to shore with a boat half-full of water when the wind kicked up during a lake crossing.  Most of those canoeists will be traveling with a single boat with several people in it.  That makes for mass-casualty events (you hear about it in the news regularly). One april we barely made it to shore with a boat half-full of water when the wind kicked up during a lake crossing.  We had two canoes and 6 guys, but both canoes almost sank.

I don't think it's very scientific to lump one of the most seaworthy craft (sea kayaks) with one of the least (canoes) for evaluating safety.  There are also large numbers of new kayakers (fastest growing watersport) that haven't even considered safety before taking their kayaks out.  If one of those guys launches alone from bean hollow thinking a PFD is going to save hime w/ no wetsuit and flips over 400 yards out.  He's dead.  It's that simple. 

When the kayak was going down under ethan and I, him w/o wetsuit and me with one, I spent the time wondering if I could swim him in when he turned blue and stopped moving.  Would he freak out and I'd have to run or defend myself?  It didn't come to that, but during that time I'd severely re-evaluated kayaking safety.  Buddies (in other kayaks), wetsuit, compas/gps, radio and whistle are all more important pieces of safety gear.  For our sport in our conditions it will save more lives to highlight the inadequacy of the PFD than to praise it.

pescadore, I knew you were a burly outdoorsman, this was all a trick to pull you out of hiding!

Thanks for the comments, I do appreciate them.

Maybe if I (ever  ) get a chance to salmon fish and am out there in the wild sea,
I will look more kindly on the PFD that I did actually buy the other day, if only to
keep in my hatch for now. It is true that at 41 I'm not getting any stronger. I started
fishing because I'm likely to be doing less surfing in the next couple of decades.

But I'm with p-spark on the point that the PFD is not a cure-all for safety. and in particular,
I would like to see as much attention given to better kayak reserve flotation.

Hey boxofrain, glad the noodles worked for you!

I knew you were going to say that outdoors thing.  Well, at least you're carrying one with you now.  Your family and friends will appreciate it.