questions for bluekayak.

It would be good to get some of that locale-specific guidance.

mainly when I go out, and see some indications of fish somehow,
then drop a bunch of line and don't catch anything after 30 minutes,
I'd like some suggestions about what to do for the next 30 minutes.

shallower? deeper? circles. S-pattern. pull up and scan the horizon for
boats, birds, etc? what? probably the answer is yes to all of the above,
persistence sure seems to work pretty well.

stuart suggests slowing down and speeding up which effectively does
the same thing with the same amount of line out. that seems like a
no-brainer, I will remember that one.

I don't have a ff yet. I will only get one this summer if I don't have
any success with the salmon. and then I might just give up on salmon and go rockfishing
and halibut hunting again like last summer instead, I don't know yet. but I'd really
like to catch a salmon.

I mocked up my trolling arrangement off the back of the boat with an 8.5" graphite rod and
an upgraded-drag abu 6501 with a clicker and 30 or 20 pound spectra which has 6 or 8 lb diameter compared
to mono, should allow me to get deeper with less weight and effort. I can reach the rod without
too much effort. I will get one of those little mirrors the bicyclists mount on their helmets
or glasses or hats to monitor the rod a bit better.

The same rod should do double duty mooching. it's ideal for neither but okay for both. I'll string
a slido behind the swivel so I'm ready to mooch after trolling.

when I get my aleut paddle, I'll take some pictures and post them for inspection. should be pretty
amusing.

also blue, have you considered trolling for trout in lake melones or mcclure or something like that?
it looks like it is good when salmon is closed.  might help with the withdrawal symptoms. I guess
there are some big brown trout caught on big plugs once in a while, you could try that maybe.

best,

j

I have actually trolled successfully for fish from a kayak before, but it was using a malibu two and I was trolling
for barracuda in the florida keys. I just stuck the rod in a scupper hole. what did I know? the spinning reel I was using
has a permanent clicker, I'd hear it zing when the strip or plug or live pinfish got nailed. most of the time.



so I hear you about having the rod in front of you, but I'm going to be stubborn and try it off the back of
the boat.

Here is my proposed setup.

well-used Scupper Pro Tank Well with rudder in yum yum yellow.
one of the faster boats. should be fine for my 160lbs of mostly flab.

I am using an old playmate style cooler, with the top cut off, some black ABS tubes ziptied into it for rod
holders. It can be held in place horizontally or at an angle if I place some foam cylinders under one end.






it looks ghetto, and it is, but it's also pretty stable. I'm not using the little ultralight for salmon trolling,
that is in there to see about trout trolling as practice. Also, my net fits into one of the other rod holders
pretty well. with the cooler at an angle, there is room in the tankwell for a smaller fish or two.

the cooler unbuckles and can be stowed in the front hatch for wild blue-kayak style launches and landings.

Here you also see my compass mounted (okay, press-fit) in my drink holder, and the funky Aleut paddle I got which should be
good for higher wind and chop situations, not to mention old joints and bones and slow speed manuevering. 
If I had titanium tips installed it would have doubled for harpoon duty, hmmm....



why do I have a ghetto back strap? because I used no seat at all before. I wanted to be able to
reach behind me without a seat getting in the way. and I want to keep the lower center of
gravity that a simple foam pad provides.

no fishfinder. no pfd. no GPS. I think I will get a vhs radio tho. I use a 4/3 no-zip hooded wetsuit.
that's safer than any PFD, you'll die of hypothermia while you float. I got a chance of doggypaddling
back in my surfer wetsuit.

you might also see that my bowline is a surf leash. it can be attached to my ankle, so I don't get
separated from the boat by too far. It can also be attached to the paddle.

The rod is an 8.5 foot 10-30lb graphite thing, a shakespeare catera. $50, not very durable looking, but
light. I assume it's a steelhead rod of some sort. I worry that when the sinker releases the wicked
rebound will pull the hook, I also have an 8' ugly stick spinning rod I could use, the tip is fibreglass
and has way less rebound than the graphite rod. that would be okay for trolling, mooching might
not work so well, it's not real sensitive. I could also use a spinning rod for trolling, it has a clicker
and you can reverse reel to lower the weight down. the drag washers are small but they are
greased carbontex also.

anyway, I mocked it all up with the rod in the holder, a 24oz lead weight hanging in a bucket of water,
the rod bends quite a bit, almost to the water, but it clears the rudder by 18" or so and it's just behind my right shoulder, so I can reach it fairly
easily. I can get it out of the holder, but not quite as easily as I'd like.

How will I watch it?

with these:



they are eyeglass mounted mirrors for bicyclists. and salmon trollers.

via ebay, I got hold of 2 used abu 5501's and a 6501 with clickers. which I hope along with the mirror will
let me keep track of any hits.

They are spooled with 20lb spectra or 30lb spectra which have the diameter of 8lb mono or less
to help me get down deeper with less weight. I replaced the 6.3:1 gears with 3.8:1 gears for
help in bringing up trolling or mooching weights.  The drags have been upgraded to greased
carbontex drags. Should be ready for the 40lber,  .



one issue with the really light spectra is that if it's not spooled tightly, it can dig into the spool and
you can end up with a jammed reel.  .

when I get one all tangled up, I'll cut it loose and throw it in the ocean in a rage and put another
one on.  .

comments, suggestions? (I'm stubborn and proud, I won't listen this year, but I might hear you later).

best,

j

First of all you need more angle on your trolling rod or a good slamon will pull it out of your holder.  Even if its leashed leaches can fail.  Ask me how I know. plus the slalt isint good for it.  The catera is an ok mooching rod for the money.  I guess it could do dubble duty.  A dedacated trolling rod imo is 7' and fiberglass but that is just me.  maby your rockcod or halibut rod fits that dicription.  If you dont want to use a pfd I dont really care, but stop posting it for every newbe to read. there is a reason that 95% of us were them and its not cause they look so cool.  I dont want a newbe to read your post and think.  hey jmarley dosent have a pfd I dont need one.  Plus you can get fined for not haveing one. Backband doestnt look to comftrable but if you like it more power to you.

hey thanks for the feedback!

I need a rod 8 foot or longer to clear the back of the boat and that's
tied up with the issue of the rod holder.
I think the rod will stay stuck in the holder, it's at about 45 degrees,
but I will leash it as you noted. If it's more vertical, the line will
hit the back of the boat when it hangs staight down.
One of those locking rod holders is probably the ticket,
if this works out, I may convert to something like that and find
a way to mount it back there.

The catera is minimal, it'll just do the
job till I know what I really want and get a custom rod. I don't
know enough to order what I want yet.

everything is kind of a placeholder while I figure out if this will work.

I tried to keep everything cheap so that it won't bug me too much if I
destroy it. we'll see how it does. I only destroyed one set of abu bearings
this year, pretty amazing.

I used a 6'6" catera bass rod for all my fishing this last summer and it was
fine, but it's a little short for this new longer kayak.

regarding the PFD, well, it's just hard for a long time surfer to wear one,
I feel like I'm wearing a bib, and really, hypothermia will kill you in about
30 minutes here if you don't have some serious thermal protection.
going out in paddling clothes a PFD won't save you if your boat sinks,
so I guess I'm making a point there, mainly that a wetsuit is better
than a PFD except in the case you are unconcious and that is debateable.
you have a point on the possible illegality of it, that one bugs me, but then
they should fine all the surfers. Is a kayak a boat? its not registered as such.
I got problems with authority, especially when it is stupid, which it seems to be a lot.
but I could use some lessons in point making probably.

if newbs are doing what I am doing, well we are all in trouble, that is the blind
leading the blind!

happy new year patrick.

Your rite about the suffers.  As I understand the law they are technically breaking the law tho I have never heard about anyone being harassed about it.  I have however heard of kayakers getting fined for not having a pfd.  you don't have to have it on by law but you are supposed to have it on board.  why does the rod have to be straight out of the back.  with your rudder you could correct for the drag of the line out the side.
you could use a shorter rod and see the rod tip if it was in front of you.  I would check out some of the touring kayak pfds they are much more comfortable I can barely feel mine.

you can correct for the side drag, but it takes it out of you, I'm sure. I have done things in my life like the
'death ride', 130 miles and 5 mountain passes in one day on a bike. plus triathlons. I've also been
way out surfing some big waves for too long and really tired coming back. being really tired and
way out to sea sucks. the tiredness can creep up on you.  not good. Im not that
young anymore either. need all the help I can get.

I'm trying to set things up to be as efficient as possible from a human
power perspective. once I get more comfortable being out there, I can get more tired, but
at the beginning, I want to arrive back on shore with enough energy to drive home, clean
a fish, cook it, etc.

it's also harder to get tipped over if the rod is straight back.  so there's a safety issue too.

I guess I can get a pfd and toss it in the hatch to comply with the law.  maybe I can just borrow
one of my kids for that. I already owe them some pool noodles tho, 

 jmairley...I have caught quite a few salmon from my kayak, so here are some tips of my own...Buy a Deep Sixer, size 1 (the middle size), a few Apex lures, and a flasher (about 4"-6"). Tie 20" of line to the Deep Sixer, then tie on the flasher. On the other end of the flasher, tie another 20" of line. At the end of that line goes your lure. Paddle out through the surf until you are a few hundred yards out (as long as the water is deep enough to troll). Drop your line out about 20 pulls (a pull being about 1.5 ft.). Jam the rod between your legs and stick it out to the side of the boat, out of the way of your paddle. (Rod holders are not necessary, but rather just a luxury). Start paddling and you are fishing! Watch for bait scattering at the surface; this is a good sign. Experiment with your depth and switch lures every now and then. Watch other boats and see how many pulls they put their gear at. If there are salmon around you shouldn't have any problems. Check your gear periodically for seaweed, snared line, etc...You will know when you get hit...
 There is no one way to fish. Some days watermelon Apex kick ass and on other days, the silver Apex is the way to go. I have caught salmon a hundred or so yards off shore and 2-3 miles off shore. Summer of '04, I and my brothers/dad (I have a tandem) caught 30 salmon from the yak...
 Hope this helps...

thanks! some of your posts a year back or more were part of the reason I got interested in trying this.

I never thought I'd catch a ling or halibut this year, but I did, so I am hopeful regarding the salmon this
next season. hopefully they come in a little closer this next year and for longer.

JMAirey how's it going? I'll try and see if I can help you a little. first I know you know a bit about fishing so as far as the pole goes think about the size fish you are going for and maybe clearing the end of your yak, but in general it's hard to go wrong the equipment these days is so much better than in the past. I wont buy the cheapest thing but you don't have to spend a fortune either. now the reel that's a little trickier  partly because there is so many to chose from, truth is I'm trying to figure that one out myself. I want some thing that will work good but wont cost a small fortune (if any one has any rec. on a good bait casting reel for salt that holds 320/30 and has a good drag system speak up thanks) any way. what BlueYak said about the depth being anywhere from 5 ft. to 60 ft. is true. I made a joke in an earlier post about never trust the guy at the bait shop right. Beleve me that was a joke, they talk with the guy's & gal's that do a lot of fishing they usually have a pretty good handle on whats going on at that particular time, there is some truths that will always be true, trout will always probably hit worms but that's not to say they aren't hitting something else better. you will see other guy's fishing ask one of them what's working presently, most people are pretty honest, some people will pretend they know all there is to know about fishing that's why you ask more than one person. But here is the important thing be open minded it's OK to plan on trolling instead of mooching but I've been reading about what you've been thinking and I thinking, you have some good idea's, but if I get out there and I find out they are knocking dead mooching with coco puff's at 30 ft. you can bet I'll give it a try and I don't care how much gear or time I've spent getting ready to troll. Now after maybe I catch a few I'll try trolling or if I don't catch any thing on the Coco Puff's at 30ft. I'll trysome trolling. as far as what do I do if nothing bites after 30 min. Wow I've been out there for four hours and not even a nibble, sure I'll bring my line up to make sure it's clean maybe try a different depth hell after that I might try something different but try to remember it's not all about catching fish part of fishing is just being there. 

It's kind of  funny but it's not allway's everything you are doing right that helps you catch fish, it's sometimes finding out what one thing you are doing wrong and then not doing that which will allow you to catch fish or catch the bigger fish etc.

good luck hope to see you out there        Gowen Fishing.

One last thing they call it FISHING  not    CATCHING   for a reason. 

thanks! some of your posts a year back or more were part of the reason I got interested in trying this.

I never thought I'd catch a ling or halibut this year, but I did, so I am hopeful regarding the salmon this
next season. hopefully they come in a little closer this next year and for longer.

The key is to watch the reports and when the fishing's hot and the weather's friendly, get out there...

Blue those are good comments.  still hoping to hear a little about locale-specific stuff, don't want you to ruin your future guiding business,
but would be good to hear it.

I have found myself frustrated in the past with my line ahead of me, like when I was trolling for
those barracuda. I'm like Stuart, I'm afraid of whacking my line with my paddle. So I'm hoping that with it behind me, I'll get
rid of that frustration.  Plus there's this whole thing of efficiency with the paddling and not using the rudder too much.
any attachment to the back of the kayak will keep it going straight, like a rudder. Any attachment to the front will
try to turn the boat.  Having my boat turn on me is frustrating to me.

Also, at the start of all this I'm going to be worrying I'm doing something wrong and having the rod in front of me is only
going to reinforce that, so it's better if I don't have to stare at it as I paddle, at least for a while.

I don't know if you have seen those guys with a sword slung over their backs, they reach up and over, grab the sword and pull it out
of the scabbard.

So that motion works with this rod holder setup, I don't have to turn around.

practicing, I find myself sticking it in the rod holder without looking fairly often. A little funnel over the mouth of the rod holder would increase my
chances of correctly holstering the rod.

But for dropping the line, I am going to stick the handle under my left thigh, and tip forward out over my right leg like malibu suggests,
also see mooch's trooching position. I'm going do a few pulls evey 10 paddles or so, then pick it up with my right hand and 'holster' it behind my right shoulder,
samurai style. 

If there is any wind or drift at all, it seems like one should be able to carefully lower the weight and lure all the way down, then start paddling,
like one does with a three way swivel and halibut rig.  sounds like you find it tangled a lot when you do that.  I guess I'll just have to see about that.

for checking it, I'll reach over my shoulder, 'draw' the rod from the holder, then reel up with it in front of me, lower, possibly using the
handle under left thigh position, then put it back in the 'scabbard' with the over the shoulder motion.

cabelas has a new 'quick draw' rod holder that allows you to pull the rod up vertical and out. www.cabelas.com see fishing, rodholders.

I might get a rod holder like that, attach it to a block of wood (or my cooler), and strap the wood into the tankwell via the straps and scupper holes. that would
make removal on strike easier and also lessen the chance of slack line when pulling the rod from the rod holder.

I'm testing some of this by going trout trolling. It's not quite the same obviously, but it lets me test the rod behind me thing with the
glasses and mirror and even the clicker. Even the heavy rod and spectra can be used, but you probably need a 'snubber' to
prevent the 4lb leader from being snapped off the non-stretching spectra and non-bending rod.

If you drive straight east, I think you run into some lakes with trout, the state record brown trout is 30lbs or something, they
got it trolling a big saltwater plug.  the best season for that seems to be the winter and early spring as I understand it.

Thanks for the help, lay on the advice for monterey canyon regarding depth etc if you have time.

J

I may do that.  But I may also get one of these cabelas quick draw holders for back there. not sure yet.

basically what I have now is all semi-permanent while I figure out what I want. As you have noted,
you don't know what works till you are out there a few times. I may yet give up on the rod
behind me, but not until I go out 3 or 4 times with it.

right now, I'm thinking the elevation on the holder makes it easier to get it in and out, puts the clicker closer to my
ear, and I can adjust the rod angle.

I do have a hatch right at the seat, so I do have through hull access, just not great like you would have with
the big rear hatch.

thinking more about the line straight back thing, I caught two halibut this last year,
one of them came while slaloming kelp strands in capitola, I had a live anchovy
on the rod in the holder pointed straight back, this allowed me to accurately dodge kelp. 
I basically just inched my way along, the bait pretty much directly below my stern. 
kept looking back and then once I looked back and the rod was bendo. I don't think
I could have done that with the rod out to the side.

This new boat does have a rudder. it was a little bent when I got it, but it seems functional.

however, I'd like to minimize the use of the rudder.  if you are paddling with the rudder cranked
over, that has to be significant drag, probably equal to the tackle you are dragging, I guess compute
the frontal area of the rudder vs the stuff you are towing.

I'm in pretty good shape and have always been a strong swimmer and paddler, but probably not
in your league as far as that goes.

regarding the line shooting straight back, it can shoot straight back but if the rod tip is out to the side
at all it will put torque on your boat and try to turn it.  I think what matters is where the
tip is, not where it goes into the boat. as in the rod holder could be out on the end of an oarlock,
the rod points back at the boat and the tip of the rod is on the centerline of the boat: no torque.
I think this is mechanics as our buddy isaac invented it 300+ years ago.

my rod is actually a little on the right side of the boat, but it points back a little so that the tip is closer
to the centerline, it's almost right on it.

This is also why I needed a longer rod, at least 8 feet and 9 feet maybe ideal, I have 8.5 foot which will
work.

Well all that will work or it wont. we'll see.

What I'd like is sort of a basic trolling plan. I realize that no plan ever works and that something always
changes, but I'd like to start with a plan.

I mean you paddle out in monterey bay. the area looks fishy, some boats, some birds, some bait.

you are not ready to mooch just yet, trying trolling first.

What do you do first (how deep) and for how long? If that fails, what do you do next?

I'm kind of looking for that kind of info. it's the stuff that is probably second nature to you and
hard to put into words, but that' what I'm after.

Salmon newbie question for you Blue, what is the difference between a dodger and a flasher. I am trying to set-up a line rigged the way you described. I was looking for flashers but all I saw was "dodgers"...Might be one and the same...As for the Apex any size preference? shape?
Also what kind of line do you use?.
Thanks, Alain

alain, since blue is a scarce resource around here, I will answer your questions, well studied newb that I am.
They are pretty basic, you could find the answers almost anywhere (just google 'flasher vs dodger' for instance).

1. a flasher rotates 360 degrees, a dodger only wobbles.  The purpose of a dodger or
flasher is that it signals to the salmon that other salmon are feeding near your lure.

see http://www.protroll.com/flasherbook6.html

2. I think malibu two (andrew) uses a dodger and diver combo, but most of these guys use weight, often on a sinker release,
and just the terminal lure/bait, no dodger or flasher. The reason given is that the dodger produces a lot of drag. the extra drag
will also cause your lure to rise up, meaning you need more weight, a bad cycle. andrew caught a lot of fish close to shore,
at linda mar in 2004. the diver dodger combo might be good there where you aren't worn out from a long paddle to the fishing grounds.

3. apex (or pro-troll sting-king) 4.5" watermelon seems to be the go-to lure, but it sounds like if the fish are there they
are not too picky. note that pro-troll advertises a better action on slower troll and now apex has two models, the regular and slow troll model.

4. for line blue says he just gets whatever the dude at the tackle store winds on, this year it is some kind of flourocarbon line but
he appears to think any decent line will do. stuart recommends 15-30lb spectra line because the narrow diameter
means less drag and deeper depth with less weight.

alain, did you read stuart's article? you should read that first, maybe two or three times. go to the home page
here, look at the articles, you will see stuart's article.

From what I can tell it is all about getting your lure where the salmon are, after that, as long as you have a hook on
some kind of standard salmon lure, and you put it in front of some salmon,
you stand a good chance of being hit, these are not wild trout in a stream
feeding only on the insect hatch of the hour. No need to get too hung up with details of rigging beyond the basics.
No magic rig will save you if you are at the wrong depth or the wrong place or going too fast or slow for your
lure.

I went with 20lb or 30lb spectra, pro-troll 4.5 inch watermelon sting king lures, some of these rotating bait holders,
10oz, 1.5lb, and 2lb lead balls and medium (3-4lb release weight) sinker releases. 
I bought one deep-six size 1 diver as a backup if I run out of balls, also
a couple 8oz banana weight (which does not release) if I can't stand the diver. I'll probably get a dodger at
some point, a small one as andrew suggests, 4 to 6 inches but won't put it into play unless the fish are
real close to shore and I'm not hooking up otherwise.

Best,

J