Busted for shore fishing at Bonita Point 8/7/09

OK....no apology forthcoming....
Instead an explanation of the logic, which I kind of think you will find persuasive.

Police work --- the initial contact with most subjects --- occurs out-of-sight to anyone but an individual officer.
Certainly .... unwitnessed by unbiased civilians.
Co-subjects mostly don't count as witnesses because of bias reasons.
Typically the most "reliable" witnesses are other officers.
But in cases where misconduct is alleged, experience has proven time and time again that police testimony is often protective.

THEREFORE......when police misconduct is described from a witness and in circumstances which lend themselves to direct belief of that described misconduct --- it is not time to be ambiguous in condemnation of the conduct, of the officer, of his competence to carry that very very special trust that DERIVES its importance from the very fact that under a huge percentage of actual-event arrest and contact circumstances absolutely no possibility exsists of testing or even slightly evaluating what actually happened or knowing step-by-step conduct(s) of the officer.


I find ITSONICE's account believable in every detail.
His post was just to advise us......what happened.

Now if you believe ITSONICE account:

The officers did not have an offense to proceed on.
The officers "threw on" lies....that they did have an offense.
The officers did not afford any degree of rational treatment to ITSONICE, given that there was not one iota of "probable cause" to suspect that he was anything other than a law-abiding citizen.
Since "battery" is hitting a fellow and "assult" is putting him in fear, one of the officers by putting his hand on his weapon, committed "assult under color of law" which is an extremely enhanced degree of any other form of civil or criminal assault.
In terms of "right to be there," no "ADMINISTRATIVE CLOSURE" was in effect so ITSONICE had every right to be where he was.
Furthermore ITSONICE was in possession of a valid California Fishing License...giving him the special status of being a "licensee especially authorized by law to enter any public fishing venue in the State of California and to fish there."
The officers DID NOT act with the circumspection that citizens are entitled to expect from officers in a NATIONAL RECREATION AREA and from officers who are hired as "park police/wardens."

NO PROBABLE CAUSE.......AND NO OFFENSE.....

These are sweeping facts --- police are trained to "triage what they have" with respect to evidence, with respect to probable cause, with respect to "situational threat." 
(To Reviwew:  The Golden Gate National Recreation Area...Issues of "entry" and "fishing" in the presence (ITSONICE's testimony) numerous other individuals already present in the very venue where "entry" was a question...Additionally it was Open Space where concealment and flight were both not available and not at issue.)

The officers-in-question did NONE of this triage.

THE FACTS OF THE SCENE AND ITS SURROUNDINGS did NOT invoke any "standard police policy" (as Officer SRJ alleges) of forcing ITSONICE to sit or assume any special attitude.
Contrary to SRJ's belligerant and completely wrong proclamations: 
"Standard Police Policy" is to be courteous and to NOT invoke special restraints or measures where...
   There is no offense...
   Where the officers have greater need to ask questions and determine circumstances---than the "directed objective" of an arrest.
   Where there is no probable cause.    Remember, you civilians,  Police live and die on probable-cause issues.
   There was ZERO justification---for approaching ITSONICE aggressively in their vehicle.
   And on and on.

Therefore the officers acted as badge-heavy bullys....   c o m p l e t e l y   ....out of accord with professional conduct standards.
It is very important to get rid not only of mis-acting police.....but it is equally important to extend the most stringent Administrative Oversight to situations where sworn police make irresponsible statements in support of police who have been patently wrong---criminal or nearly-criminal in their conduct---...I am referring to SRJ's statements, which are indefensible even from his own department's written policies and procedures.

I find that ITSONICE was treated terribly terribly wrongly.
I absolutely would not want any of you, to be so-treated.
I have collateral fear---for what happened subsequently to the non-english speakers who ITSONICE testified were fishing in that area.

I feel that there is "high risk" that these badge-heavy fools:
   1) were bottom-of-the-class grads in their Bachelpor-of-science law enforcement work
   2) were bottom-of-the-class grads of their "cert" training
   3) were turned down for "real police jobs" in SF, Oak, Albany, Richmond, San Leandro...etc..etc..because their interviewers found that their statements showed an utter lack-of-grasp of .... everything.
   4) were "hired into" park-police positions because in actual fact --- the low end does get hired ... by agencies whos "Main Mission" is directed more toward "light enforcement."

And I feel very strongly-----that Administrators should be notified----that in light of the "ITSONICE-case" circumstances all three of these Golden Gate National Recreation Area officers should undergo a penetrating scruteny.

Judd Smith
1589 Campus Drive
Berkeley, CA  94708
[email protected]

When I was younger I thought about being a warden or park ranger, instead I became an NCKA moderator. 

-Brian G

When I was younger I thought about being a warden or park ranger, instead I became an NCKA moderator. 

-Brian G

light duty?

I'm sorry that I & I's hide got chapped by the "encounter". If it was me I would have felt the same way. It would have been "nice" if Shannon would have said "Hey man, sorry bout that. My bro's were having a bad day. They just had to deal with, etc....." That would have been cool from one NCKA member to another to smooth out any ruffled feathers. But let's just count some of the accusations, name calling, and insults made by JWSmith towards Shannon.
1."felony criminal conduct"
2."belligerent"
3."badge heavy fool"
4."park duty" as a demeanor
5."criminally incompetent"
6."does not belong in police service"
7."fool and a bully"
JWSmith, you went way over the top with your first post. Your second post, "no apology forthcoming, instead an explanation of the logic" just reinforced the first. Well here's my logic. This is a fishing website for fishermen. It is not your courtroom. I am not trying to defend Shannon in any way. I am trying to point out that you did not have to "commit" any personal attacks to make your points. But you did. jim

Here it is again:

Just because you "believe" the account of an upset citizen doesn't make anything "fact".  

Because you start with an assumption your specific logic in this instance is flawed (you didn't choose to assume the officers acted correctly) and you once again fall back on name calling and degradation of their position as officers.  You're labeling things as fact based on your assumption.  That right there is an impossibility.

Your logic may be solid based on the assumption but we have no way of knowing the validity of your assumption so we have no way of knowing if your argument is correct.  Really just a lot of words that say nothing.

I don't find your logic persuasive at all.

John

the sign on this thread should read "Don't feed the trolls".

I'm wondering if JWS is bored and trying to stir up a wasp nest for fun.

Trying to throw water on the fire. This thread is locked. PM if you don't like this decision.

I have unlocked the thread. Get personal or insulting and you get banned.

-Brian G

I can definetly understand both sides of the arguments here, but I need say no more cause im scared!!!     Why cant we all just get along?

us against them is the THEME of US ALL!
.....sure this country would be over run with crime without law enforcement, it already is in some cities....so whoever doesn't want to live here...LEAVE NOW!
It won't make a bit of difference..... Dogs chase cats, cats chase mice, mice seek cheese......around&around we go!
Get along with others, respect those of authority and enjoy what life brings you.......even if your hands are full of fishing gear, sitting on a rock, in a park, be ready for some Bull$hiT that might get you mad.

I can definetly understand both sides of the arguments here, but I need say no more cause im scared!!!     Why cant we all just get along?

Why? Because we are people, not robots. Don't be deterred from speaking your mind. jim

Fish Master there is no need to be scared about discussing topics regardless of how controversial. Just refrain from personal attacks and the obvious violations.

-Brian G

Hey all,

Just got caught up on all posts, opinions and perspectives regarding this thread. After chewing on this for a bit, wanted an opportunity to address Mr. Smith’s assertions. I respect all opinions, whether I agree with them or not. I believe Smith is spreading a ton of misinformation that needs  correcting.  Before doing that I’d like to say some words regarding NPS signage, closures, and the Pt. Bonita area. These are solely my opinions and do not reflect that of the NPS. The Bonita Cove area is closed and posted as such. The primary trail leading to the most popular fishing area is posted with large, conspicuous signs indicating that closure. There should be additional signage at the other goat trail access points into the area, but there comes a time when you cannot possible place signs to address every park regulation and closure. As you might imagine, there would be untold thousands of signs all over every National Park in the country. Being a hardcore fisherman myself, I understand what it feels to have a special fishing place taken away. I am just the messenger and did not enact the closure but must enforce it.  ITSONICE was warned and not cited because the signage was not great at that location. If there is any doubt, I will always err in favor of the violator.

The park superintendent has the authority to create park specific regulations for the overall protection of the park, its citizens, wildlife, etc. These regulations can be found in the park’s Compendium.   

As for the specific assertions and allegations from Smith, I find them to be patently false. Should an officer feel it necessary to place his hand on his gun, this is based on the potential there may be a need for it.  As stated earlier, the officer placed his hand on his gun BELT.  To state that an officer placing his hand on his holstered pistol equates to felony assault is laughable. The decision to do so is at the discretion of the officer, based on many variables surrounding the contact. Nature of contact, persons present and their disposition, environment, past experience, knowledge of the presence of weapons or potential weapons, etc. No officer has ever been convicted of felony assault for placing his hand on his gun. No court would entertain such a charge. If you don’t believe me,  show me the case, case law, ruling, or precedent, Mr. Smith.

The contact made with the fisherman was lawful and well within the scope of a sworn law enforcement officer. I don’t claim to be the sharpest tool in the shed or to be the smartest cop, but I’ve learned a thing of two from being an officer for twenty one years. My fellow officers and I are dedicated to being professionals. Our primary job is to protect human life. We swore an oath and for the men and women I work directly with, this is iron clad. I concur that there are unprofessional and incompetent persons in every profession, including my own. Nothing in that contact rose to the level of unprofessional conduct, plain and simple.

Mr. Smith you make many erroneous presumptions about what I do for a living. Unfortunately, you are terribly incorrect. We here at the GGNRA work in an urban interface. In addition to the occasional contact for littering, F & G violation, feeding the squirrels, as fully sworn federal officers we perform the full array of police duties, to include enforcing laws and investigating criminal activity you state happens only in Metro/Oakland. If you knew anything about what I do, the things I’ve seen and handled, you’d never step foot in this park.  I’ve heard your statement that we are not “real police”, many times. I interpret that statement firstly as a personal attack, and secondly as lack of understanding of what it is I actually do. If we aren’t “real”, then we must be  imaginary?

 We arrest hundreds of people in this park every year. Have made many, many arrests myself for violent crimes,  sexual assault, felony assault, felony drugs, parolee at large, warrants, burglary, DUI, disorderly conduct, weapons violations, during my eight years at GGNRA. In fact, one of the “badge heavy” thugs who handled the closed area call at Pt. Bonita apprehended a murderer two years ago, a stone’s throw away from Pt. Bonita. He captured the suspect with his dead girlfriend in the trunk of his car, in this park.  That officer was awarded a commendation for his swift actions that brought a desperate and murderous monster to justice, and safeguarded the public from further harm.

Mr. Smith, we understand that some people don’t much care for us(you seem to be one of them), but that does not prevent us from purposely placing ourselves into harms way to protect such people. For information purposes only(no tooting your own horn here), I will tell you I received a commendation for my actions during an armed robbery, attempted murder on the Golden Gate bridge on April 9, 2005 at 9:30 pm, in which a violent predator shot a toll taker point blank then tried to kill the first officer at the scene. Thankfully the officer put the suspect down after a horrendous gunbattle. Being the second officer on scene during this event is something I’ll never forget. Jumped into the toll booth after ensuring the suspect was safely in custody and cared for the frightened toll taker who was bleeding profusely from gunshot wounds to the throat and upper chest. Mr. Smith, this is what I do, and this is who I am. I’m thick skinned enough to not let your disparaging commentary get through my armor, but I will also defend my fellow Park officers and our commitment to our profession.


Shannon

  Hi Shannon,

  What I'm wondering is, why couldn't they just drive slowly up to the fisherman and say, "hello, how ya doin'? BTW, we know it's not very well posted, but you're not supposed to fish over here." Is it because they were responding to an official call? Is that the rule?
  And is it no fishing because of seals? Intentional threadjack here.
The place where I paddle every weekend had at least 1000 seals there last weekend, with people casting right into them from the rocks. I saw a PB'er guy get all exited and grab his net only to find out it was a seal stealing his live 'dine. F&G never walks out there, they just wait for the poachers to come to them.
  It seems to me, there's too many seals.

I can definetly understand both sides of the arguments here, but I need say no more cause im scared!!!     Why cant we all just get along?

Why? Because we are people, not robots. Don't be deterred from speaking your mind. jim

Beleive me im not actually scared just dont really want to speak my mind! Due to the respect of both parties!