Jeffrm20's Dual Hatch Tarpon 160 *Updated 3/10/2010*

I have thought about something like Dougs pulley idea many times. 

It seems like a cool way to do it might be to have the pulley on a laundry line that starts near the seat so you can access the release etc., but once its clipped in you could trolley the pulley to the stern to minimize the tendancy to turn the yak as well as get the leverage close to centerline and the long axis of the boat as possible...make sense?

Marmite thats one good looking downrigger. Is it custom or can you get them like that with the motorized 330gti?
Also do you know where to buy Marmite in the large bottles in the bay area?

SBD,

How would you keep the trolley line taut enough so that the force of the weight and drag on the line didn't pull the whole trolley line down below the waterline, creating more drag?  Seems like you would have to have some kind of hooks to relieve some of the downward tension on the trolley line, but they would then hang up the trolley as it passed fore and aft with the downward pull of the weight on it?

I don't really know how much rotational force is put on the yak if the DR line is dropped right up close to the side of the hull.  Zee probably knows the answer to this.  

But another possible solution is to use a takeoff on one of the Scotty or Cannon weight retrievers.  The Guide I used at Lake Almanor had them on his four downriggers and they seemed pretty nifty.  They essentially consist of a ring or pulley that the DR line runs through.  This, in turn is attached to a cord that runs through a clete that, unlike the open ones, has a closed ring that keeps the cord in place.  You let it out when you let the DR weight down, but when you pull it up, you can pull up the retriever cord and this draws the weight right along side you and you secure it there with the clete.  Then when you got your line reset you just release the line from the clete.  

But using the same idea, you could drop the downrigger line, say through a scupper hole, then get it to the side, put the retriever ring on and then the weight.  So you could pull the line to the side, clip the fishing line on and then release the retriever line and let the weight hang from your scupper hole (something jmairey once queried doing in the past).  That would put the weight pretty close to centerline and probably make any rotational force on the yak negligible. Probably would just try using a ring or small pulley on the terminal end of the retriever cord to reduce drag in the water.  Just playing around with some additional thoughts...

thats a very interesting idea Q.

the only thing i would worry about is ensuring that the braided line/wire goes straight down the scupper hole normally.  having it rub against the edge of the scupper hole may not be good for the scupper.  unless someone reinforced the scupper.  i also would not want to drag the weight to the ramp, so i would imagine you mean to hang the weight snap underneath for launching and landing connected to the weight retriever, then hooking up the ball while on the water.

so i would imagine you mean to hang the weight snap underneath for launching and landing connected to the weight retriever, then hooking up the ball while on the water.

Right.  Once on the water, you would drop the DR line and metal clip through the scupper hole and let enough line out so that the line hangs freely.  I think you probably could just take a slow swipe with the front end of your rod and grab the  DR line with one of your rod guides.  Then slowly draw the line up the side and secure the retriever pulley or ring and then the weight.  Now your weight hangs underneath your yak unless you pull it up to the side to reset your fishing line to it.

I really don't think there is great risk of gouging the sides of the scupper channel since you are not putting a large amount of lateral tension on the line as you let it out and if the braid is wet, it would be lubricated. If you were really worried about the scupper you could just drop it off one side, clip a free fishing rod line to the DR line and run the fishing line under your yak by passing the rod tip around the bow of your yak.  Now just reel in the rod and it should pull the DR line over to the opposing side.  Unclip it, connect it to the retriever line as before, and now you can position the DR line directly under the center of your yak (assuming you have marked the retriever line to indicate how far to pull it up when secured in the clete.

Don't really know if this idea would work because when I tried my downrigger setup it seemed to work satisfactorily so I wasn't concerned about addressing the rotational drag on the kayak.  But at Almanor I only was in about 50 feet of water so it was not a true test for salmon trolling where I might want the line out much deeper .

How would you keep the trolley line taut enough so that the force of the weight and drag on the line didn't pull the whole trolley line down below the waterline, creating more drag?

It would only sag inbetween pulleys, but once it got to the back and bottomed out at the pulley it shouldn't sag much at all.  That said, the laundry line doesn't have to bear the weight, it could simply be for movement and the pulley could be attached to a load bearing line, shaft, or track.

Oh, now I understand your thinking.  I can see that once the trolley point got all the way to the rear position, the terminal support would essentially be taking the force of the weight and little, if any downward force would be on the trolley line itself.  Be interesting to see how your idea works.

The downward pulling force of the DR isn't bad at all as long as it's just hanging over the side. I think it has a lot to do w/ what kind of yak you have as well. Narrow yaks like a  Scupper Pro could be difficult to deal with.

A NWKA member has been running his DR through a scupper and he likes it a lot. He replaced the DR wire w/ braid and said he hasn't noticed much wear. He doesn't DR fish a bunch though. I think if you did a simple mod like putting a length of PVC in the scupper hole to guard against wear it'd be the best solution for a paddle yak. It gets it just about to the centerline to cancel out most of the side pull and best of all is simple.

Z

Z,

How does your friend grab hold of the DR line to reset?  Can he just reach under the side or does he use something to grab it with?

use a light ball at the start. 1.5-2#'s is good.

Says the man who has 6 pound balls.

-Allen

Z,

Can you clarify something for me?  It seems there are at least three ways that the downward force of the weight effect the dynamics of the kayak:

1)  The combined force of the gravitational force and line/weight resistence pulling the kayak down.  This would cause the kayak to displace more water and increase resistance to forward motion.  But since the force is very small compared to the total weight of the kayak/kayaker, this effect should be minimal.

2) The combined force acting on the lateral stability of the kayak.    This is where the distance of the downrigger drop point from the kayak's centerline has the greatest effect.  Here, the width of the kayak, and hence it's lateral stability have the most influence since the degree of stability must counter the destabilizing force from the downrigger.  This concern was addressed by the early comments in the thread.

3)  Finally, the combined forces that result in a rotational force on the kayak, turning it to the side of the downrigger.  This is where the use of a rudder or uneven paddles strokes must counter the effect of the downrigger.  This is also where putting the drop point fore or aft of the paddler has an influence.  The farther aft, the more the force actually maintains the direction of the kayak and the farther foreward, the more it contributes to a rotational force that acts to turn the kayak to the side of the downrigger.  The lateral placement of the drop point contributes to this dynamic as well.

I have gotten a little confused in this discussion as to which factor is of most concern.

Obviously, a long outrigger arm and a narrow kayak will contribute greatly to lateral instability.  But since I am considering a drop point as close to the side as possible this is not a concern for me.  I am mostly concerned about whether it is really necessary to go through the trouble of trying to drop the line any closer to the centerline and whether putting the downrigger forward of the cockpit will result in marked rotational forces as opposed to the common mountings just behind the seat.  I don't remember my math (probably trig), but, because of the angles involved, it seems that the actual rotational force from a forward mount should not be huge since most of the force vector is directed backward rather than laterally as long as the drop point hugs the side of the kayak.

Anyway, sorry if this is not very clear, but I figure you'd get the gist of it.  Since my on-the-water experience with downriggers is so limited, I am reduced to mere mental speculation and would therefore value some input from the NWKA, since you guys probably have a lot of experience trolling deeper with downriggers.

PS: In reviewing your comments, I noted:

The problem is you're moving the part w/ all the drag (the line) further towards the bow of the yak. When you do that you're giving the line more leverage to pull the kayak sideways. Decreasing that drag to a minimum (so you don't have to correct your course) is going to pay off in the long run.

Was this a theoretical consideration, or did you actually compare the performance with the drop placement close to the side of the hull in the fore and aft positions? 

I guess, next time I'm out I should just drop a 4# weight 150 feet down and clip it to my front and then rear pad eyes and see how much difference it makes.

Z, How does your friend grab hold of the DR line to reset? 

He's got the Scotty DR weight retriever.

Says the man who has 6 pound balls.

You forgot to mention they're brass. Seriously, I started a long time ago.

To answer your Q's Marmite:
Yes I did try out DR's etc. up front. The most extreme example is I when used to use a planer. I started w/ it in the front rod holder and the side pull was intense. I tried it in the rear rod holder and there was a huge difference. Since I'm using a Hobie I could run a DR up front but it would be a pain. A paddle yakker would have a tough time since the second they stopped paddling to mess w/ the DR they'd turn immediately. I had a Malibu w/ this kinda set up for a short time and it was murder!

Overall some of the forces may not be so apparent at first but if you're trolling w/ the DR over of a long distance you'll feel it. Through the time I've put on the water w/ pedal and paddle yaks the simplest and most convenient place to put it is right behind the seat on the rail. Where you mounted yours.

Here's my progression over the years.
The Hobie Outback


The Malibu


The Adventure


The Adventure II


I'm sure you could run something that would put the ball at the stern of the yak but if you have problems on the water access is all but gone. And problems do occur w/salad getting on your line not to mention if you DR ball actually got snagged on the bottom. Experience has taught me to follow the K.I.S.S. rule.

Z

Sorry for the threadjack Jeff.

Thanks Z.

The most extreme example is I when used to use a planer. I started w/ it in the front rod holder and the side pull was intense

I can certainly see why this would exaggerate the rotational force in the extreme.  It would be tantamount to having a downrigger extending as far out as the position of the planer, and having the drop point there.  Guess I'll just keep it where I have it and only experiment with moving the drop point to the centerline if I find the need when trolling deeper water.  With the salmon situation, that may not be anytime soon.

Q I will try out the centerline through scupper hole idea later this year and will let you know my results.  i will be trolling pretty deep water this summer (80-100ft), albeit at low speeds of around 1.2-1.4mph.  i also am considering a tahoe deep water trolling trip which would be in excess of 150ft and slightly higher speeds upwards of 2mph.

I troll 2 to 2 1/2 lbs all day long from a 10 ft rod pointed 11 o'clock so trying to be absolutely centered seems unnecessary

Yeah but you're the trolling legend of NCKA. Someday we all hope we can pull in the salmon that you have.

Z