"CHOOSE" a kayak..??..why heck..BUILD A KAYAK..!!..

I see it this way:

Judd is just telling a story about how him and friends have done it in the past.  Nothing illegal about that.  The reader can decide to use that info lawfully or not.

I enjoyed the read.

Well....I could be wrong about this... ...but....

Guys get patents to protect themselves from people who will take the idea and set up against them in manufacture.

You can sing a song that somebody has innovated without paying ASCAP.
No commercial benefit is involved

But if you're a radio station you do have to pay
Technically if you're just a piano-bar you have to pay

Then along came computers and the internet.
Songs could be "pirated" and distributed free to an infinite extent.
The patent world had never experienced this before
So a fleet of special provisions were written into the law directed at the copying of songs....and dissemination of same even-though-no-profit-motive-was-involved.   The law made "dissemination" per-se, the crime.

Now back to boats......
If you are making a boat for your own use period....
And if you make it FROM an existing patented design as I describe...
I do believe the law allows you to do that.

Now IF I AM RIGHT....that still leaves the question open:
Is it a correct thing to do?
There are lots of things the law LETS you do that an ethical man would not.

Interesting question, but I say that with cracking a fiberglass SOT from a patented tupperware design......it's completely ethical on the ground that the original manufacturer is not offering his design in fiberglass...at all...you can't buy it in fiberglass.    And the reason YOU want to make one in fiberglass is to get away from the (typical) 60+++ pound weight of tupperware.   Therefore you are not taking money from the patent-holder's pocket because no one's even making a gesture-of-effort......to build the thing you need.

Judd

Hi Yakers:

   I purchased a paper back "How to Build Yaks" that I am will to let go
for future consideration.
   I would build one myself but, my wife world kick me ass if I tracked in
fiberglass into our home!
                                                          Ernie


     

Judd, I'm pretty much with you on this one. This wouldn't really harm anyone's so-called "intellectual property." And again, I doubt tons of people are going to take the time & effort to do this, so it still wouldn't have much effect on an SOT mfr's sales.

   I would build one myself but, my wife world kick me ass if I tracked in
fiberglass into our home!

Funny, Ernie. Fiberglass & resin can create a huge mess!
When my grandfather discovered the joys of fiberglass he used to patch everything - thing's like the screen door, car seats, anything! Tacky! 

BTW, for anyone who's thinking about doing some fiberglassing, do be cautious with the stuff - you don't wanna breathe in fiberglass particles and catalyzed resin can spontaneously combust if the temp is hot, & of course, open flames can ignite it. 

Man, I Sooo dig seeing Tom Blake's name in a paddling thread. Nice going Hydrospider. Love the photos!
While I've longed for a composite SOT (& always regret not having the $ to buy a damaged fiberglass proto OK scupper a coworker had) during portages, I know I've accidentally abused my plastic boats in ways that would have wrecked a fiberglass hull.

On the legal-or-not-thing: jwsmith's project/story (all that work & not a single pic to scan? .....) would be an ambitious undertaking, so I'd gotta give some props to anyone who would go to that trouble. However, from recent personal legal experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone, today's legal world ain't 1972. It would not surprise me terribly if doing this resulted in a lawsuit from some designer. Maybe not though...
Still, an interesting read.
It would really go well with a pic or two of a yak made this way .

Along with some pics a potential cost would be interesting.  I'm not sure if the mold materials and boat materials would be at all feasabile.

When tupperware came on the market we whitewater boaters embraced it.

Forty pounds and no boat repairs....???...
You can't beat that.

I have no photos....
Last boat I made....would have been circa 1980.
I have "worn out" two tupperware boats, "lost" one downriver, had one stolen.

For a 12-foot 3-layup boat figure 12-yards from a 50-inch bolt.
There is zero-waste....to avoid wrinkles you will be cutting and laying in patches.
You will stiffen places that take special stress.

If you use "gel-coat" as the first layer in your mold, that "patchwork" will of course be invisible.   If you use "clear-coat" it will be on display.   If you are using exotic "new" graphite and kevlar fabrics you will want your handiwork on display so that people can admire you and what you have done.

Pricing: from TAP Plastics (an outlet on San Pablo Ave in El Cerrito near the DMV)
or GOOGLE:  "fiberglass fabric"

No......person.......big or little....girl or boy......should live their life without visiting a Tap Plastics store and groking what's there, and what you might ever want to do, and how their stuff would enable you to do the thing you want to do.

For SOTs....the bottom-half would be piece-of-cake (same deal with a decked sit-inside).   SOT top deck, because of the many "features" would take three-four times the attention, thought and vexation.

A prior post....doubted whether a glass boat would be strong enough for his need.   I would say glass is excellent for an SOT.   Glass is spurned by SOT manufacturers because it is labor-intensive....the roto-mould boats are SO MUCH EASIER to mfg.    Remember, we did use glass in whitewater.   Yes, we did get cracks for every HARD rock-contact.   But....with an SOT coming in on the sand....man.....I see glass as being quite good.

I'm reluctant to make anybody a promise, but I think a 3-layup (with strengthened points) hand-layup INCLUDING appropriately-placed interior-shell foam inserts (to guarantee a no-sink boat) could come in at circa 40 pounds.

Full-decked, 17-foot, sit-inside, VACUUM BAGGED, sea-kayaks ... including interior bulkheads, skeg-keel and hardware...are available at California Canoe & Kayak weighing 55 pounds.  Price up there at $4,000.

From a "weight accumulation" point-of-view, the multiple "features" of the top-deck of a SOT are clearly a liability to making any kind of 30-pound SOT.
Workmanship and attention to squeegieing-away...all excess resin from a hand-layup would be critical to getting minimum weight.

A guy can compromise with "strength" and let experience be his guide.  Heck, a patch is easy to apply.   I KNEW a guy who did a 2-layup vacuum-bagged glass whitewater boat that came in at 22-pounds.   It was the subject of more mirth than anything I can remember.

Judd

Guys get patents to protect themselves from people who will take the idea and set up against them in manufacture.

And for other reasons which bear on discussion contained in this thread ... 

For SOTs....the bottom-half would be piece-of-cake (same deal with a decked sit-inside).   SOT top deck, because of the many "features" would take three-four times the attention, thought and vexation

Vexation Indeed!  I agree that the hull would be fairly easy to layup, but the deck would be a completely different matter.  Admittedly, I don't have much experience working with fiberglass, but I did recently make a carbon fiber "dash wrap" to provide a reinforced base for my rod holder.  For even such a limited project it was difficult for me to accomplish, mainly because it's not easy to get the carbon fiber to conform to the sharp contours of the underlying kayak that I was using for a mold.  (Carbon fiber is considerably more rigid and less conforming than fiberglass.) I can't imagine trying to do an entire deck, given the complexities of contours in your typical SOT kayak.  I suspect that that is why commercial fiberglass SOTs like the Altura lack the complexity of contour that, say a P15 has.  Admittedly, losing contours like the footwells are not exactly a great loss. I couldn't get a vacuum bagging system that would work, and that would certainly have made my project far easier.  But I wonder how easy it would be to vacuum bag a whole kayak deck.  You would still have to get the bag to conform to a lot of deep, irregular contours, and even one area that didn't "suck out" would kind of mess up your project.

Another difficulty resulted from the fact that I used epoxy instead of polyester resin.  Epoxy resins have better mechanical strength, better adhesion, and generally better water resistance than most polyester resins. But you can't alter the setup time of epoxy like you can polyester resins and you can't layer epoxy on a previous layer unless it's within the first 24 hours.  If longer, then you have to sand the previous layer and you only get a physical bond, not a chemical bond between the layers.  Because polyester resins don't fully cure, you can just keep layering on a new layer.  Practically speaking, that makes a huge difference, because trying to apply all the layers on a large deck surface within 24 hour intervals would be a big job I would think.  Additionally, if you try to apply large amounts of epoxy at once you run the risk of having it set up too fast or, worse, literally burning up. I've had as little as about a 1/2 inch in a paper cup set up, start to smoke and almost catch on fire!

I know about taking pride in your work and all. But given the effort involved, not to mention the extreme mess, Unless I was real experienced working with this stuff, I think I'd rather pay the money for a fiberglass kayak.

I would rather spend my time fishing than building. I bought one of the first SOt's available on the market in 1974. A malotte scout2. It was heavy 70pounds for 14ft of sot. I crashed that boat many times. No floatation in the hull. No compartments. 2 hatches. We never even thought about sinking. Dumb, I know. I have done lots of fiberglass repair in the auto repair industry. Its really a no brainer to make molds or fabricate. You just need time and since time is money, I buy stuff instead of make it.Give me a plastic boat over fiberglass any day. We had a chopper gun in school at Novato high and we made alot of little boats. It was fun.

Rule-1:  Never do a thing you'd 'druther not do.....
Rule-2:  Never push a square peg through a round hole...
Rule-3:  Never pick a "hard" design unnecessarily

Apart from that:

You cannot "drape" fabric over a bowl...without getting folds.
All folds are prohibited...................so...

With epoxy layups you get short-radius or radical compound surfaces by cutting and laying strips:  in overlap -- in cross-lay -- and inter-woven.

You do not want sharp right-angles and corners --- don't seek them.

When you crack a mold from its original....it is then not at all difficult to modify the design (by filling with plaster-of-paris...or excavating).

There are forumulations of epoxy resin AND curing agent that can be used to match your needs.  

There are resins that Ultra-Violet Cure.   And there are "slow hardening curing agents" that are 9-12-hours to SOLID...and 1-4-Days to Max Life.    ("Pot-Life," though, is different from "Cure."   Pot Life is usually only 20-25 minutes.)

When I mentioned my own anticipation of various "vexations"...???...the thing I did specifically have in mind was the difficulty of dealing with "scuppers" which are through-holes in both decks, and the sealing and mating of which would be the last step in assembly, and whose "intermediate cylinder portion" would require some thought as to:  How am I going to do this.

Judd

skygreen

skygreen

worse

skygreen

worse

I think I just peed my pants

skygreen

I was just about to say that 

I've been thinking about splashing my hull and redesigning the deck to fit my needs for a couple months now.....then the whole, time, funding, other projects I need to complete before starting a new one keep popping up