The Cost of Being Green

Most of my family has Honda Civics, but I'm not sure about trailers on Civics.

I Just order a bolt on trailer hitch for my 2000 Civic. They do make trailer  for most economy vehicle. I believe the only draw back is 1000 pound towing capacity. My sport rig trailer loaded with two kayaks probably max out at 500lbs. I also have Thule bars on the roof top for solo trip. I nice to save the environment and save money at the gas pump at the same time. 

Corn for ethanol has a bunch of problems.

1. It is not effecient to make fuel from corn.  The return on energy invested is anywhere from ~20% to -20% depending on whose paper you read.

2.  It is raising all food prices because corn that used to feed cattle, now goes to make ethanol jacking up the feed cost.

3.  It takes up valuable agricultural land that could be growing something consumable.  One reason that your beer prices are gonna go up is corn taking over acreage that used to grow barley.

4.  Corn is a very fertilizer intense crop and the watersheds are gonna suffer big time.  Just look to the "dead zone" in the gulf of mexico as an example.

Lots more where this came from.

I think that the best bet is to get ethanol from cellulose once the technology is in place.

Corn is just a bad idea, and it is demonstrably only being used because of the powerful corn lobby.

MolBasser

Unless you live in a place with lots of stop and go a basic hybrid is pointless, and I too would go bunny diesel.  The newest bluetecs jointly developed by vw/audi/benz are incredibly efficient and very clean.  We do have a hopped up "plug-in" Prius at my work that does deliver over 100 mpg on a daily basis. If I lived closer to my office (not green) it would be a great alternative. 

But enough about hybrids, they are just a stepping stone.  I was talking about 100% electric.  They are coming.  Gas will be yesterday.  I can't wait.  Its a big drag race between A123 and altair nano...and I think A123 is going to win because a LOT of people are helping their bottom line with fancy power tool from home depot.  And hardcore EV people are pushing the envelope for R&D everyday.  Once big money jumps in its over.  These two home spun units are broadening the appeal and paving the way. And they aren't lame and nerdy. 

Killacycle running on a giant stack of reconfigured A123 lithium ion cordless power tool batteries...

 

White Zombie (kicks ass with lame lead acid batteries)...

Some more examples of fast electric cars:

http://www.teslamotors.com/

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/04/technology/business2_wrightspeed/index.htm

Unless you live in a place with lots of stop and go a basic hybrid is pointless

Not true.  They still get good mileage all around.

But enough about hybrids, they are just a stepping stone.

Yup.  But I'm all for getting the best available technology that satisfies my other needs as well.  My Grand Cherokee was reaching its final legs for me and I needed to buy a new SUV this winter.  The Highlander Hybrid fit the bill.  Yes, it was chosen over higher MPG SUV's because of perceived aesthetic reasons.  So being greener (better MPG in this case) wasn't the very top of the list, but it was high up there.  I wasn't going to wait around for all electric SUV or super clean diesel SUV, so did the best I could and was willing to ... TODAY.

BTW, anyone want a very non-green 1993 Grand Cherokee with 180K miles on it?  What's the greenest way to deal with this car ... sell it and put it back into circulation ... or just junk it?  It's not worth that much.

-Allen

They still get good mileage all around.

Not any better than any other small compact.  On the highway they are just a gas powered car...with a giant ass NiMh battery doing nothing.  Hybrid systems only function below 30 mph for short periods.  Our Gen II Prius at my office only gets about 42-44 mpg on the highway, not bad but nothing amazing, a Corolla gets essentially the same without leaving a big hole in Neveda's nickel reserves.

We will be taking delivery of a full EV SUV in a few months, I'll let you guys know if it really works. 

They still get good mileage all around.

Not any better than any other small compact.  On the highway they are just a gas powered car...with a giant ass NiMh battery doing nothing.  Hybrid systems only function below 30 mph for short periods.  Our Gen II Prius at my office only gets about 42-44 mpg on the highway, not bad but nothing amazing, a Corolla gets essentially the same without leaving a big hole in Neveda's nickel reserves.

We will be taking delivery of a full EV SUV in a few months, I'll let you guys know if it really works. 

Civic Hybrid gets 40 mpg highway and 45 mpg city.
Regular Civic gets 29 mpg highway and 21 mpg city.

The hybrid version has a smaller engine that arguably would be underpowered without the electric assist.  But it also gives better mpg at highway speeds.

Yes, you can find another brand car in the Civic class that gets 40+ mpg.  Although I wouldn't compare the Corolla to the Prius.  It gets 26/35 vs. 48/45.

But again, I'm not buying cars on gas mileage alone.  I still have to like the car.

Are the batteries used in hybrid cars recyclable?

-Allen

For some very good reasoning why the present hybrids are not really "green", see the latest Boston Legal (tv show) Season 4, Episode 10.  While your watching, listen to the strong argument against plastic-bottled water.

Sean, who makes the EV SUV that you're going to try out?   I also think/hope that EV is the future, and for long range with either quick recharge stations/batteries or a little built in generator to keep the batts charged.  Simple.

Too bad A123 is not a public company (to invest in) as I think you're correct that they will win out over Altair Nano.   -Matt

You can repair any car that is not hybrid YOURSELF given that:

A) You buy the full shop book from the car's manufacturer (usually about $100-$200.)

B) You buy a device that will read your onboard vehicle computer's diagnostic codes.  This latter item varies in cost.......The Dealer's Scanner will run $2,200 (at least Toyotas does)...the Snap-On scanner is about $1,500....

Then there are alot of "small handheld scanners" of varying quality that you find advertized in places like toolsource.com.   I use the product of www.autoenginuity.com .... which is supplied as a "kit" including all the connector cables and a CD-ROM that runs on your laptop.    I prefer this because I get to see the on-board-vehicle-diagnostic-computer-outputs on my laptop screen....EVERYTHING IS RIGHT THERE FOR ONE TO LOOK AT.    Tiny screens have the disadvantage that you have to page and page and page....through the many "OBD" outputs to see what you want.   The autoenginuity product runs just under $300 and covers all of Toyota and a bunch of other vehicle-makes.

Once you have access to what the computer is saying about the on-board sensors.........you are, to use an old term, "back in the driver's seat" and you can trouble-shoot and repair your vehicle's engine (and other parts) with the same logic and the same understandings that have been used to repair vehicles from Day One.

The new world of auto-repair will also require you to own a GOOD quality digital volt-meter......falling in the caterory of $88 to $200.

It's my word-of-mouth-understanding--------that Hybrid Manufacturers (including Toyota) will not sell you the full shop book for that car.   Hybrids do not have just one "OBD" computer ("OBD" = On Board Diagnostic) but at least two, sometimes more.....and these computers "talk" to one another in utterly important ways.

I believe --- again, just word-of-mouth stuff --- that Hybrid vehicles are just utterly "a case apart".....you CANNOT take them anywhere for troubleshoot & repair except the Dealer Garage.

I enjoy working on my car(s)........have all my life........have saved thousands-squared in accumulated repair bills.    And when something goes wrong I'm still in the picture........this fact really empowers me with my wife.    None of my wife's friends husbands can do more than lift the hood and look at the dipstick.

Judd

FYI-  You can generate diagnostic codes by jumping terminals in the diagnostic coupler with a paper clip for any OBD I or OBD II cars.  The codes will blink through the check engine light.  They have to, its part of the smog law.   BTDT.  Knowing what to do with the code is a whole 'nother story.

This is kind of a cool article on real world highway mpg...

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060424/FREE/60417021

The real culprit, weight and performance expectations not technology...

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=16995&url=http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/17/autos/honda_civic_hf/?postversion=2007121911

The real culprit, weight and performance expectations not technology...

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=16995&url=http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/17/autos/honda_civic_hf/?postversion=2007121911

Nice article Sean.  Safety and its effects on weight are also mentioned.

Today's consumers also expect safety. In the 1980s, car companies would sell cars that got one-star or two-star crash test ratings. Numbers like that would now cause car companies fits. Four out of five stars is considered the minimum acceptable rating.

The modern Civic has airbags front and side, electronic stability control and built-in crash protecting structures in the body. (See correction.)

Even the CRX's biggest fans wouldn't relish the thought of getting into a wreck in one of those cars. While actual crash test results are not available, even a Honda (HMC) spokesman admitted the car probably wouldn't have fared well by modern standards.

"Without the benefit of modern crash structure and extensive use of high strength steel, cars from two decades ago couldn't match the crash test performance of today's Hondas," said Honda spokesman Chris Naughton.

Increased safety, meaning more weight from airbags and crash structure, has meant lower fuel economy.

"It's kind of a classic engineering fight where safe cars compete with more fuel-efficient cars," said Todd Lassa, a writer for Motor Trend magazine and a CRX aficionado.

Agreed, but weight and safety don't have to be conflicting.  The lightest cars in the world are the safest...just the most expensive too!  I think that in the post CAD era a safe, light, economical car is possible. 

Yeah, great articles Scwa. I found a section on evworld.com that had peoples reactions to their hybrid and EV cars. I found the RAV4 EV and it sounded pretty good by what past customers had remarked so searched the web for pricing and came across a disclosure from Toyota as to why they stopped production!

Here's the most suprising part to me.
"In addition to overall customer acceptance, technical issues tied to electric vehicles remain a major hurdle. Industry practice regards batteries to be at the end of their useful life when capacity decreases to 80% of original capacity. A battery's capacity is the amount of charge that it holds, and is commonly measured by the range of the vehicle. It is cost-prohibitive to replace an EV battery. The cost to replace the battery is more than the value of the vehicle."
http://www.toyota.com/html/shop/vehicles/ravev/rav4ev_0_home/

Are those batteries that expensive?? And if they are, wouldn't Toyota have been able to figure out this problem way ahead of production? NiMh batteries are nothing new and there's been tons of research done.  Fishy.

Z

Call me when EV's have a 350 mile range at freeway speeds (65 mph average) and can be charged in 5 minutes at convenient locations practically everywhere. Here's a little math for you, so you know basic requirements.

30 hp (remember, this is a family vehicle, capable of hauling 4 people plus gear plus two kayaks) = 22380 Watts power usage at speed.
350 miles @ 65 mph = 5.38 hrs

Which leads to needing a power cell with a capacity of 120 KW*hrs, or about 1/8th your monthly home energy usage.

The "state of the art" Tesla only has a range of 220 mile in the combined EPA test, so figure about 175 miles at pure freeway speed (aerodynamic drag at speed is a bitch...). This is a 2900 lb vehicle capable of carrying two people and minimal luggage. It takes 3.5 hours to charge. It costs $100K

The Highlander Hybrid was definitely in the running, as a replacement for my wifes CR-V.  The problem was that it was going to cost at least $6000 more than the standard Highlander that we eventually purchased. Since we plan on keeping the vehicle for 150,000 miles, the price difference would never be recovered, even at an average fuel cost of $4.50/gallon. The power cell would also have been out of warranty for 50,000 miles.

If I could find one that was reasonably priced, I'd be all over a Jetta TDI wagon for my personal use, and just run the Frontier when absolutely necessary. The problem is, is that there aren't any reasonably priced TDI's...

Regards,
Scott