The Cost of Being Green

Ethanol to produce takes 70% less energy than it produces, but in order to produce enough corn to satisfy the need, fertilizer must be increased. In turn, all that fertilizer gets washed down the watersheds causing an imbalance in the ecosystem with to many phosphates enering the environment. Aka deadzones in the ocean and massive blooms of algae. Maybe the algae will intake the Co2 that is blamed for "global warming."

There are to many variables to take into consideration on how to become "green." Take a prius for example. Those batteries didn't just come from anywhere, they were manufactured and took a lot of energy to do so. Then to dispose of them with all their heavy metals and acids. Now who is wreaking havoc on our enironment?

I do agree we all must do our part to help the environment, but we can't believe all the hype that is going on. I drove a gas consevative car for years but it wouldn't be useful in carrying my kayaks. Are we then part of this "problem" cuz we drive bigger cars? If those politicians with all their hot air would quit telling us what to do and how we are responsible then I say have them ride bike and get rid of their private jets. Maybe we as kayakers should get a tax break since when we are on the water we don't pollute, we keep in shape with all the miles we paddle, and we only prduce Co2 when we exhale. Sorry Al gore, but we havfe to breathe ya know!

Allen----that MIT link was interesting.

Judd

You know splashdown, I feel ya. This all started w/ people who wanted to make an alternative to the regular ways of making energy and it got all difficult to understand when it actually became viable and politics got in between it all. There's a lot of people out there who are just trying to make it more complicated so we all just give up. But it's not that complicated as long as we do a little research and let the BS just slide off your back when someone tells you that a Prius is a toxic vehicle. Reminds me of all the BS that spewed from Limbaughs' mouth when this all started.

Speaking of a good fuel alternative that seems to be taking grip, algae.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_from_algae
Lots of great links at the bottom of this page.

Z

First of all I am not an energy saint and do consider myself as much a part of the problem as anyone,

However, 

I find most of the discussion in this thread really disheartening and a definite indication as to why we are where we are.
 
IMO

Biofuels are more harmful than beneficial. 

Let me explain,

First of all I believe the most effective way to be green is to use less energy&resources, and just in case you missed it I think the second best way to be green is to use less energy&resources. And one more time for effect the absolute best way to be green is to use less,,,,,,,

Biofuels, while viable to some extent, do more to give the public a False sense of hope about biofuel as a renewable energy source that will allow us (me included) to believe that we can just get more (energy) instead of having to USE LESS. 

This false hope will stop or at least slow down the public from demanding real technological progress in the fields of ENERGY EFFICIENCY AND CONSERVATION.

If we don’t make some huge strides sooner rather than later we will be faced with some really ugly options that will FORCE all of us to use less.

However, I want to be loud and clear that using less energy does not necessarily mean fewer creature comforts per se.  Here are 3 examples of significant energy savings that do not impact lifestyle/comfort.

1
Take the modern refrigerator, estimates are that the current energy efficient refer produced today uses about 1/4 of the energy of the same refer of 30 years ago.

2
CFL bulbs, about the same, 25% of the energy as an incandescent bulb for the same amount of light (although CFLs take a heck of allot more energy to produce than an incandescent, take a look at that ceramic block at the bottom).

4
Even a new Corvette gets twice (or better) mileage than one that’s 30 years old and the performance of the new one is so much better than the old one as to be an unfair comparison.
 

If CO2 is an enemy then why are we talking about figuring out how to make more instead of less? 

Ethanol (and other biofuel) does pollute somewhat less per gallon than a pure hydrocarbon motor fuel but you need to burn more ethanol to go the same distance, and before you burn it you’ve used about 30% (best estimate) more energy just to get the ethanol, how is that a good thing in the first place?

I actually work for a company that is on the forefront of turning agricultural leftovers and any other cellulose material into ethanol.  It’s a multinational company and I have nothing to do with that part, and I don’t think it’s a good idea, Yes it’s much better than turning edibles into fuel, but still it’s only going to be a small drop in the bucket of the amount of fuel the world uses, and again it’s the publicity that will slow down other energy conservation efforts.

The world has become too small of a place for business as usual.  Almost anything that gets turned into a consumable fuel will take something from somewhere else.  Whether that be food out of your mouth or nutrients out of the soil.

So use less and go solar,

dale

IMO

Biofuels are more harmful than beneficial. 

Well, there is the whole "they don't release sequestered greenhouse trace gases" thing that you seem to have overlooked. You also seem to have overlooked the need for somewhat efficient, flexible long range transportation. The kind that doesn't need to recharge its batteries every two hours (Which, using a state of the art solar panel, could take all day). So while using less is a very good thing, eventually you get to the point that it is too painful for society as a whole to use less (financially, standard of living, time, etc...) and then what may further assist in decreasing "emission footprint" are things like (suitably obtained) biofuels.

Regards,
Scott

A deeper shade of "green"

http://www.greenbiz.ca.gov/

On another note:

Found an interesting article on the " Northern California's Adventure Sports Journal"  - Inspiration for Outdoor Athletes - regarding 100 ways to Green Your Life. July / August 2007 Issue #38.

I have a few copies if anyone is interested - just send me a PM. (these are free)

IMHO cars will be electric.  Battery technology is there, but in need of scaling for affordability. Solar is the ultimate source.  Everyone has a roof, business roofs are even better, there is no need for large scale solar farms, it can be everywhere.  Again scaling needed for pricep oint. The concept of de-centrilized, non-fossil power sources are unsettling to the man, but they will figure it out.  We are doing it at my work right now...its no longer a theory, just need to get the snow ball rolling. 

BTW-as to cost, I firmly believe that it would be cheaper if you factor in the BILLIONS we spend supporting unstable regimes around the globe trying to protect our fuel sources.  I would much rather invest in ourselves and tell those whackos to 

I'm not impressed with the toyota prius. everyone is buying them like do something special. i used to have a vw rabbit diesel that got 55mpg. it was built in 1984 it cost a lot less and had no expensive batteries to replace. when are they gonna make a hybrid pick-up truck that actually gets great mileage?

Prius (and all "hybrids)......???....

A) Anyone who buys a car he/she cannot repair themselves is tetched.

B) Anyone who buys a car that can only be serviced by a dealership, is tetched-squared.

They're try'in to move us in that direction.
The only thing a fellow can do is say "no."

Judd

IMHO The Toyota Prius runs more efficiently on the freeway without the heavy batteries.  It's just good for lot's of starting and stopping, and hills like in San Francisco for the regenerative braking, but the whole system is just way too complex, and complex manufacturing and maintenance does not equal green. 

Just get a Toyota Yaris (Echo) for now.   The VW Polo and Diesel Mini Cooper are great too, but the Polo isn't sold in the US for whatever dumb reason.

Sean, I do hope cars go electric, with solar kits for our roofs.  The battery technology is there as you know, and just getting better. For longer range, electric cars can have a little built-in generator (possibly with flywheels) running on whatever fuel is best.     

I hope ZAP in Santa Rosa gets it's act together, or rather, stops "acting" the roll and starts really producing.  People are selling their ZAP stock because ZAP doesn't answer our basic emailed questions as naturally concerned investors.   Such as; what's the schedule for the production of the much touted Zap-X mini SUV?  Hello...Earth to ZAP...

Yaris is NOT drilled & tapped to pull a trailer.
Corolla is.

Judd

Hi Judd.   Good point.   Corolla it is then.   Most of my family has Honda Civics, but I'm not sure about trailers on Civics.   I have the Toyota Tacoma 2WD with the smallest engine.  Plenty of power and 27 mpg..  Love it.  -Matt

I guess the morale of the story is...


It ain't easy being green! 

(somebody had to say it )

A) Anyone who buys a car he/she cannot repair themselves is tetched.

What's "tetched"?  And what cars can you buy today and repair yourself?

-Allen

Make more nuclear power stations, and use it's energy to fuel the cars.