Abalone and dive knives

Earlier I read in a post on here that you were not allowed to carry a knife when you were ab diving because you could be cited for it because you might use it to take abalone which is strictly prohibited by the gear provision section for abalone take.

I can't speak to anyone's personal experience with DFG wardens because some of them can get overzealous at times. They can also be friendly, reasonable, and pleasant while still doing their jobs, I personally have had contact with both types.

So back to the subject:

I put the question to Carrie Wilson who is the DFG biologist who writes the Q&A column that appears in the WON paper as well as the California Outdoors Q&A postings that come to anyone on the DFG email list. While she is a biologist, most of her Q&As seem to be about regs and enforcement.

Here is her response,

You are allowed to carry a knife strapped to your leg or arm or whatever for cutting kelp, etc. while diving for abalone but you may not use a knife in place of an abalone iron for taking abalone. As you can see, the regulations and specifications for what an abalone iron must be are very specific. Just be sure that you have and use an abalone iron that fits the specifications listed and do not use a knife in place of the abalone iron for taking abalone, and you should be fine. The main reason for this rule is because (and I'm sure you probably already know this) abalone are hemophiliacs and even the slightest cut to the foot when attempting to remove the animal from the rock may injure the animal and cause it to bleed to death. The abalone iron with it's rounded corners, and wider and thicker base should help to prevent this.
 

Thanks for the clarification.  Based on my experience your post is correct and the other post would require and real @#$% of a Warden to interpret it like that.

Thanks for the detailed post, researched, referenced and quoted with credentials.  Way to keep the NCKA posts such a high caliber, excellent! 

Thanks for the detailed post, researched, referenced and quoted with credentials.  Way to keep the NCKA posts such a high caliber, excellent! 

Nice observation, AbMan - and it's true too.   

Nice work, Dale.   

In response to my previous post I have had several first hand instances from different game wardens checking and stating carrying a dive knife while abalone diving is prohibited.The reason being carrying such an object one may use this to pluck abalone instead of the iron.(Side Note-Over the years I have tore quite a few abalone feet up with the iron for whatever reason. If I infact had to explain to an offical that I used an iron instead of a knife, it would of been really hard)
 
The wording in the dfg regs can be open for interperation depedending on the offical "YES!".... but do you want to push your luck with a warden that disagrees with opinion and interpretation of the regs. In the regs it shows in plain sight that the special gear provisions prohibited scuba as well as knives,screw drivers, sharp instruments etc. If you care to fight a citation from what a DFG biologist says and what a DFG warden says I'm putting my money on the warden.

I just wanted to make fellow divers aware of what I have incountered from many years of diving. 



"Per DFG regulations section 29.15

(e) Special Gear Provisions: The use of SCUBA gear or surface-supplied air to take abalone
is prohibited. Abalone may not be taken or possessed aboard any boat, vessel, or floating device in the water containing SCUBA or surface-supplied air. Abalone may be taken only by hand or by devices commonly known as abalone irons. Abalone irons must be less than 36 inches long, straight or with a curve having a radius of not less than 18 inches, and must not be less than 3/4 inch wide nor less than 1/16 inch thick. All edges must be rounded and free of sharp edges.Knives, screwdrivers and sharp instruments are prohibited."

First of all I'm not advocating carrying a dive knife while freediving, Over they years I have, then I didn't, but now I'm back to it with a sheath that holds the top and bottom of the knife tightly to my calf so as not to be a catch point.  I have no illusions about being able to cut myself out of a kelp tangle, If a person carries a knife for that reason then I think they are fooling themselves.  But I do find it useful to cut snagged fishing line that I'm finding more often these days.

Carrie Wilson isn't just a DFG Biologist, part of her job at DFG is to reply to questions from the public with accurate information and she works closely with the enforcement people as many of the questions she gets are about interpertations and enforcement.

Abdiver,
I contacted her again about your personal experience and she again responded that it's OK to carry a dive knife while ab diving.

Also, she has asked me who is having the problem and where it is occuring so that she can clear up any miscommunication that may be occuring in the field.  

Since I don't want to get any farther into a "he said, she said" situation I will PM you her email address so that you can contact her directly.

I absolutley agree with your point that getting cited even if you're in the right is a huge deal, (been there once).  It has also been my experience that wardens don't accept explanations in the field, however I have seen a judge dismiss DFG charges after hearing an explanation.

dale

It is obviously a point that needs to be pointed out to DFG. The quoted reg needs to be modified to say that
"Knive, screwdrivers and sharp instruments are prohibited from being used to harvest abalone."

I absolutely agree with your point that getting cited even if you're in the right is a huge deal, (been there once). IT has also been my experience that wardens don't accept explanations in the field, however I have seen a judge dismiss DFG charges after hearing an explanation.

dale

Your exactly right the "wardens don't accept explanations in the field" With the Department of Fish and Game, if you are cited for whatever reason it is your responsibility to prove to the court that you are not guilty.Doing so in certain instances could potentially be nearly impossible as it could end up as a "he said she said" situation. A wardens word in court of law holds very firm and for  good reason of catching individuals that intentionally break the law. I support the these individuals and the jobs that they do but can say that I would never want to head to head with one.

The biggest problem I see with this issue as well as other regs is the way they are stated and the way it may be interpreted. I will email Carrie Wilson this week to voice my concerns,my experiences with differnet DFG officials, and locations.Take the little excerpt out of the DFG hand book as you may  but as far as carrying a knife I personally do not and would not for this specific reason as well as others.I'd rather not have to try to explain myself or try and fight a citation because an official potentially thinks that a knife was used for the take of abalone. Its better to be safe than sorry until the wording in the hand book is as clear as day,just my 2 cents.

Why not bypass the whole thing and get a pair of stainless steel shears (scissors) in a holster with a flap over the top?  Might not work if you're running thick gloves...suppose it depends on the shears.  Maybe a pair of small pruning shears from the garden center.   

That would make it virtually impossible to harvest with, but you should still be able to snip through kelp and fishing lines...probably even easier than with a knife (no tension needed...snip!)

I'm SCUBA certified but haven't done kelp dives, so shaker of salt and all that.   

-mox