spear penetration

I have an ab biller 24.  I shot a ling at point blank range from directly above the fish.  I aimed at and hit the spot just behind the eyes on top of the head. The shaft went in as deep as the beginning of the double floppers but did not penetrate.  Before I was able to grab the gills, the fish squirmed off.

my question, was that a bad spot to aim for?  Do I need a bigger gun?  Different band?

I have an ab biller 24.  I shot a ling at point blank range from directly above the fish.  I aimed at and hit the spot just behind the eyes on top of the head. The shaft went in as deep as the beginning of the double floppers but did not penetrate.  Before I was able to grab the gills, the fish squirmed off.

my question, was that a bad spot to aim for?  Do I need a bigger gun?  Different band?

I don't know the answer Eugene, but was talking with fuzz about the same topic this morning....he made good points about how shorter guns and those with screw on tips have a harder time getting penetration and power.

My gun is 27 inches so similar to your biller 24, and I have a double flopper spinning rockpoint tip.

I have shot Lings in that spot and had it go right through, but have also shot them in the gill plates and pretty much had the shaft bounce off. 

The big one I shot yesterday I hit in what I thought would be a winning shot right in the flesh of the back and the shaft/tip barely penetrated at all....think it might have been also because I was not as close as I usually am when I shoot them in a hole and since I only have one wrap of shooting line on my little gun the line stopped the shaft from going any further.

So...will be curious to hear what fuzz, Rick and the other guys have to say. I know they are big fans of the RAs with the hawaiian floppers...I just like my short little double flopper for the tight holes, but may consider trying out a different style to see...

 

Sincerely,

Jim

My thoughts, useless as they may be.....

I have an AB Biller 32, that I rarely use now, anyway I took it to Neptonics and they put thicker bands on and shortened them way up, big difference in power. The band that goes to the front notch, is even shorter. They mentioned something about the shaft releasing evenly? Makes sense I guess. I also switched out that stock Biller double flopper spear tip, it was really long and had to travel way in the fish, so it could deploy. I still use the double flopper, but now use the JBL, much shorter. Haven't played with the single floppers yet.

As far as where to shoot the ling, I wouldn't know Still searching for mine!

Was the retaining ring over the floppers when you shot the ling? Was the piece of rubber on the shaft below the floppers compressed? Those are two possible malfunctions with a double flopper.

In my opinion, I generally associate double-floppers with being somewhat bulky, not hydrodynamic, and more likely to fail in certain situations. Also, the tip on double-floppers is wider. These factors, combined with the shafts and bands of Ab Billers (shaft is high diameter, bands are weak), and you don't exactly have the optimal set-up.

Hawaiian floppers with Euro gun shafts are more effective for penetration. They're more stream-lined (thus hydrodynamic), and the flopper pinches closed on entry, and then opens up once it goes through the fish (if tuned). Additionally, single/hawaiian floppers don't leave a large "bullet hole", so it's less likely to pull out and you'll ruin less meat. In my experience, a single flopper is easier to aim with, as well.

If you don't want to get a new gun or shaft, beef up your bands (either shorten them or use thicker rubber) and you shouldn't have that problem again.

When I decide where to shoot a ling, I consider a few things, like it's distance, behavior, and positioning. My favorite place to aim is between the eyes so the shaft goes downward and the flopper opens in the throat. Second would be through an eye socket, through the spine, and out the back side of the skull. If the ling is sideways facing, I aim laterally in the bone behind and just below the eye. If it's facing away, downward through the top-back of the head and out the mouth. I try to never shoot through the gills (soft and wastes meat), and never go for a body shot or soft tissue shot.

But really, it doesn't matter where you aim on the head, so long as your bands and shaft are configured properly, and you're in good position/range. Ling heads really aren't that hard, especially compared to cabs or sheephead.

I had the same problem with a Biller 32 with halibut last year, it is incredibly frustrating.  Sometimes the sliding ring can have burrs on the inside which prevent the shaft from sliding nicely out of the gun.  I took mine off and used a round file to take down the uneven parts, oiled everything, and put it back together.  The gun still had less power than I wanted for shooting halibut.  I replaced the front notch band with something shorter and thicker for more power, which seemed to have done the trick.  Also, I agree with what others have said about the spear tip being very long, you need at least 6" of penetration (that's what she said!) to allow the floppers to open.  Most of the dudes I dive with use the JBL rockpoint tip, or a euro style single flopper mounted straight to the shaft (not screw on).  Good luck!

PS:  I now use a biller 36 and have an upgraded 3 notch shaft for an extra band (for hunting seabass)...  So far I have shot 6 large halibut with it only using the 2 stock bands and tip and have had no problems with penetration (I swear!). 

Preface:
Wrote the following random thoughts, then realized I didn't really answer Eugene's question.   


Shafts/Tips:
The main problem with threaded shafts is that the tip always has a cross-section much larger than the shaft diameter.  This directly affects penetration.  The main pro of the threaded rockpoint is the short distance between the tip and back of flopper.  In holes, this gives a bit extra leeway for the flopper to pass through and toggle. 

Rotating tips themselves are another set of issues - they almost always have some play and improperly aligned, which causes accuracy issues.  The ones with a retainer ring are probably the worst culprits... wildly inaccurate with wobbly spinning axle, rubber tabs, and a forward facing scoop (ring).  Most divers up here don't mind/notice because the fish are tame enough to still get a shaft into em; however, the difference is quite noticeable.

Tahitian/Hawaiian shafts are great for their simplicity and streamlined nature, but you do have to be more careful in what's behind the fish you're targeting.  This isn't necessarily a negative.  It forces you to be more cognizant of the angle of your shot, but this makes you a better diver.  Angles affect not only the ability of the flopper to toggle, but also affects chances of stoning the fish and ease of extracting fish from tight holes.  Regardless if the gun you use, shot angles are always something to work on.


Spearguns:
JBL & Billers are relics in the speargun world.  They generally have one of the following issues with them - too thick of a shaft, too big of a tip diameter, rough trigger pull, inadequate band/shaft combination, slide ring on shaft, too thick shooting line, etc.  I think RAs are excellent guns for the area - very durable, accurate, and very sturdy shafts.  Overall, probably the best performance/price ration.  That being said, there are a lot of viable options.  I've used a combination of omer/sporasub/riffe/beuchat/etc. over the years with good results.


Bands:
Bands are obviously a crucial element of spearguns.  There needs to be a balance between the shaft and bands.  With a short gun, you don't have a lot of band stretch... which translates into less power.  Adding more bands and you're in the sawed-off shotgun range... good for a short powerful shot, but not good at range.  The longer a speargun is, the more accurate you'll be at range.  This is due to both a longer draw length and increased hydrodynamics of a longer shaft.  Similar principle to how a longer kayaks track better and easier to maintain course.





Even with specs on # of bands, size of shaft, etc.... it's hard to tell how well the gun is set up without checking it out in person. 
Until then, good shot placement is always key, especially since the fish up here are kind enough to pose for you.   
Your shot choice was fairly good, but there are a lot of other factors at hand. 

Great info Harold!

Wait until you see the video of the crappy shot I took at that Ling yesterday...when I fileted it I could see that the shaft went in, hit the backbone and stopped cold.

 

Next time, I'll man up and go for the shot on the head.

 

Thanks again for all the great info and advice...I really appreciate it.

 

Sincerely,

Jim

Excellent! I would like to test a RA, anyone have a loaner

Excellent! I would like to test a RA, anyone have a loaner

I have one you can try out, maybe hold on to it and pass off to Jim or whoever wants to give it a test drive. 

Great, love to try it! Next time I see you maybe...

Thank You.

Was thinking more about it... one of my buddies uses a Riffe with a double flopper just for lings.  But he's shooting lings no smaller than 15 pounds, then puts the gun away and switches to something else for rockfish/cabs/etc.  In his case, he's using the double flopper setup with (as far as I can remember) 3 bands for pure knockdown power.

For general norcal diving, a simple railgun or eurogun is hard to beat.   

I think its Karma coming back to bite me.  Nathan researched his gun FOREVER and I gave him some grief about and perhaps compared it to buying a prom dress.   

So of course I was in a local dive shop and just grabbed the first gun I saw on the wall that fit my criteria:not too long and not too expensive.


I'll check out the RAs.  Thanks for all the help guys