2006 Ocean Kayak Prowler 15 - Revised!!!!

milkcrate(no offence)

non-taken I actually gave up the Milk Crate when fishing the ocean - yes, I'am now"crateless" - but I still use it when fishing fresh water - with multiple rods.
I've seen the royak - in fact, one our own use to paddle one (Rich/granitedive). I remember seeing Rich paddling it around Linda Mar during the hot salmon bite in '04. And I did admire the fact that nothing was sticking out of his kayak because everything was stowed within.

And I totally agree about the roto guys reinventing the wheel. I had a long chat with Scott Thornley about getting together and building a fiberglass as a start to building the ultimate Nor Cal fishing kayak. We both exchanged some really interesting ideas and I'm really excited to get this project going.

And I do agree with what Mike/Mickfish stated earlier : "Marketing ploy if they made the perfect kayak what would they sell you next year?"

Should we design our own? DEFINITELY !! Let's chat some more 

As Joel mentioned, we shot the breeze about this one night down at Fishermans warehouse.

I'd be so totally up for taking a Fiberglass reinforced plywood Stitch and Glue sit inside design, and turning it into a SOT. I can actually hear a SOT version of the Chesapeake 17"  calling my name I've also looked at some of the hull design programs, but at this time feel that modifying an existing design makes more sense.

I am  used to skinny boats, so a 17'x24" with a good bit of Greenland influence sounds near perfect to me, but I could see folks wanting to go to a 17'x25" or even a 17'x26" boat. The design I'm thinking of would favor speed over stability. Tracking would be pretty good though. Especially if a skeg or (ughhh) rudder was also included as part of the design. The idea would be to launch and return with everything stowed, or maybe a small empty crate bungied on behind the paddler. Yeah, bluekayak, I hear you, but I've also specifically gone out and done surfplay in my 17'x22" Looksha IV and a mostly empty crate behind me. Tweren't no big thang, but the surf was only 3' or so. FYI, rolling a SIS with an empty crate is not much different than rolling W/O a crate. Makes me think that rolling a relatively skinny sea SOT outfitted with thigh straps might not be that tough.

Other design thoughts:

* Make the upper deck mostly flat, to make it easy to put what ever hatches you want into it. The same applies for other attachments
* Keep the paddlers butt out of the water. Maybe by using a slight downward slant in the paddlers compartment, and then use Ethafoam to specifically build up the seat area. The paddlers butt would be on an island of sorts.
* We could do two rear deck designs, one with a hatch, one with a tankwell.
* I'd also really like to put in an easily accessible hatch in the cockpit area, specifically for fishing rods. Of course, this is solely due to my admittedly irrational fear of dangling my feet over the side of the boat while in the GW special taxation zone.


If we could get 3-5 people together, and do a boat that shared a common hull  and front deck design, we could wind up with boats that took something on the order of 30-40  hours of labor, and about $200-300 worth of material (excluding outfitting) and would kick tail on most of what the manufacturers were building. The one drawback, is that these would be made of marine plywood, so you would want to treat them with respect. That said, S&G plywood boats have sailed off of cartops at highway speeds, and not been too badly beat up. S&G plywood is also not too difficult to repair, and if built right and maintained properly, will last a very long time. And it's light too The CLC Cheasapeake I mentioned weighs 45 pounds as a SIS. I could see the base SOT version weighing in at 50 pounds. Massive amounts of oufitting would of course raise this significantly.

Scott

Funny, Polepole and I talked about wood/glass boats this past weekend.

I would concur with the idea of S&G construction for building some semi-custom yaks. I started using this method in '89-90, (was working for a S&G boat manufacturer). The wherry (rowboat) that I fish out of is stitch and glue. It's 14X48", can carry about 1/2 a ton and weighs (with just one seat) about 70#. Had I used something besides ipe (sometimes known as "ironwood") for the rails, it would be at least 5# lighter. It weighs pretty darn close to some of the heavier SOTs (especially boats w/ add-ons), and can carry a lot more. (But it's not self-bailing, darn it.)

As I've mentioned before, I'm a big fan of Pygmy Boats kits. John Lockwood has been designing and building S&G yaks longer than anyone. All the Pygmy  joints are S&G; CLC's hull/deck joints are (or at least, originally were) nailed and glued. (Heavier, and not as strong.) Pygmy's Arctic Tern was voted by Sea-Kayaker magazine's readers as "Best Kit Kayak", 2005. Models that Pygmy has, that fit Scott's ideas (Greenland influence and relatively flat decks) include the Queen Charlotte line. They run from 24-25.5" in beam. The Arctic Tern has a more complicated deck, which is friendlier to fingers/hands, but could still be used. It's pretty narrow for conversion to a SOT at 23" beam. I've been thinking about how to keep it as a SIK, but with hatches to self-draining compartments. The hull of the Arctic Tern is also supposed to track a little better than the QC. Pygmy sells plans for some of the boats, and full and partial kits for most of the rest. Check them out here- http://www.pygmyboats.com/PRICELIS.HTM

Based on my experience, I'd say Scott's numbers for time and cost should be doubled. It can take a lot of time deciding how to build something that doesn't exactly follow the kit or plans. (Pygmy estimates ~50-70 hours for their kits.) Epoxy and good marine grade 4mm okuome plywood are not cheap.

Look forward to seeing what you guys come up with.

well...I was hoping they would improve the P15 - which is a great kayak IMO. I'm very satisfied with the weight,length,width and hull shape of the P15 - The only thing it needs is an easily accessible storage hatch to store rods into - and not to forget the drain channel which the P13 has. I looked at the Hobie Quest fisherman and has a lot to offer but I'd like it even more if it was a 15 footer. I can easily reach the hatch and the seat is very comfortable.

Bottom line- here's what I look for in a kayak:

1) Comfort - if your 5 miles out and fishing for 6 hours - you'll want to be as comfortable as you can.
2) speed -  a yak in the 15 - 16 foot range - if your 5 miles out and the conditions get rough, you'll want to get out of that situation ASAP.
3) storage - easily accessible - landing in big surf, you'll want to keep all your stuff stowed in your kayak.

This is all I ask for = will any Kayak manufacturer listen to me? NO - I give up 
Please forgive me for the ranting - I'm very frustrated with ALL the kayak manufacturers 


Maybe NCKA should chip in and give me some money so I can build us the perfect fishing kayak We can call it the NCKA "Mooch" edition 
Bill - lets get the fund going....I'll put in $20.00 

Blue Kayak can be the test pilot 

There will never be a perfect kayak for everyone.  For me my X-Factor is perfect.  It is not a very fast kayak but I seem to keep up with guys in "faster" kayaks no prob.  I have badass hatches that allow me to store everything inside no prob(Love the hatches).  It is super stable.  It is very comfortable and very dry.  I have tons of room for my feet.  To me the weight and speed are non-issues.  I would rather have some more stability than speed.  Joel- The kayak you are describing sounds just like the marauder.  Just curious why you don't like it.  I hear it is suppsed to be very fast.  Just because it is longer doesn't make it faster.  Sounds like you may be splitting hairs on the speed.   

take an old p15.   cut the top off.

fill the hull with expanding foam.

carve out the deck shape you want.

cover it with fibreglass.

done!

The only downside ofthe Marauder is the footwells, which are essentially like the FND.  If you have hobbitt feet or calves, it won't be comfy.  If you have slimmer legs/feet its great.  I really enjoyed it ab diving the other day.  Plenty of speed, surfed well 4/5 swells (yes I ate is the last round) but all of my gear was safe inside the big a$$ hatch.

For comfort, I haven't tried any boat as cush as an X-factor.  I can sit in mine for HOURS and be totally comfy. It is relatively heavy, and hard to load and wrangle for smaller folks.  I actually feel that it is quite efficient for its size.

The P-15 is fast, quiet, and very seaworthy, but it puts my but to sleep, is awfully wet, and has lame storage.

Essentially, their is no ideal yak for everyone fortunately the choices continue to grow and improve, so there is something for just about everyone.

I agree with Sean about the p15.  After 3- 4 hours, my but is asleep and my low back is tight.  I've tried different seats but still have the same problem.  Spoke with other p15 owners and they say the same thing.  This  boat however is seaworthy and cuts through the swells no problem. 

My next boat will prob be a maruader or the xfactor.  The X factor rides high and really seems more like a boat then a kayak.



John

Ditto on the P15 butt problem, maybe our butts are not as padded as Joel's? 

Ditto on the P15 butt problem, maybe our butts are not as padded as Joel's? 

Yeah - I did have some problems with the seating of the P15 when I first got it...yet, odly enough, I got used to it and it never bothered me again But one good aspect about ALL the sit-on-tops is that you can always "move around" (side saddle or stradle) to ease the butt stress  I just can't imagine fishing from a SIK for hours and be comfortable....

Maybe Scott or Pat and some other SIK can chime in about this....just curious.

Mooch,

You pretty much nailed it. In my mind, the true advantage to a SOT is the ability to move around while on the water. Access to the hatches mostly. I think the ease of re-entry is kind of a wash, because on a SOT you are more likely to need re-entry (higher CG, not as good of a connection to the boat)  As for the numb butt syndrome, I think it's like riding a bicycle with a racing saddle. Do a 3 hour ride/paddle off the couch, and your a** is going to hurt. Do 3 hour rides/paddles all the time, and your a** won't bother you at all when you do a 6 hour ride/paddle.

Pisco Sicko,

I based my numbers on  3-5 people doing careful shopping for BS1088 ply,group purchases of all the materials, with the resultant savings due to quantity and shipping. And then working as a team, and not doing 4 separate parallel builds. From my manufacturing background, I know that if it takes time X to make a single part Y, then you can probably make 5-10 parts Y in time 2X. I do dig the lines of the Queen Charlottte, so if you wanted to do a SOT version, I'd be more than happy to do a build as part of a group.

bluekayak,

You are worried about spinal cord damage in the surf. I'm worried about the tax man. I know my fear is unfoundedl, statistically. I think yours is too, statistically. But that doesn't mean that it won't affect our decision making process, does it ?

jmairey,

I have also thought about glass over foam a la Rutan, but with all the hollow space desired within a hull, remain skeptical at this point in time. I would be interested in knowing if anyone ever did a S&G type build using foam instead of ply though. And just what is it about foam that does it for you any way ?  

Regards,
Scott

To get to the original post, any redesign on the 15 is one year away. The kayak mentioned on my site is the Prowler Big Game which will be a big guy kayak in the realm of the FnD and XFactor, mainly to replace the Drifter. I have been working with Ocean Kayak on the kayak to replace the 15 but like I said that is over a year away from release and that is only if it get approval from the higher ups. If you would like to send me any ideas on a newer better Prowler I would be happy to see them and forward into the upcoming design. You can send your messages here.
http://kayak4fish.com/contact.shtml

On the other topic of glass boats, it sure sounds nice but I think I would kill one a bit to fast with all the abuse I give them.

Hi guys:

I see Jim chimed in with the "Big Game" info.

I thought it was still supposed to be confidential, but if the cat's out of the bag........The Big Game is like a drifter on steroids.  Super wide and kinda tall like a malibu 2 XL.  It incorporates a number of design elements that we've been suggesting (or, complaining about) for some time now with better drainage being key.  Jim and Mark Olson in So Cal compiled a great list of tweaks suggestions for the Big Game.  Mike Mowrey and myself tested, but only had it for a day or so before it needed to be back in WA.

It's a big, kinda slow boat (I've paddled it), but bulletproof and ultra stable.  The prototype had cool "stinger" tail design like a surfboard uses to get a wide deck down to a pointy tail.  Yes, I did catch fish from the boat, paddled out to the mile buoy for out of season rockfish and ling, all released (Officer, I was looking for halibut.....)

I work with Ocean Kayaks like Jim does and will post a new thread like the GWS thread for any and all Nor-Cal 'new prowler' comments.  I'll forward them through to OK as I get them.  I will be going up to the factory sometime in May, so it wold be V. Cool if I had a notebook full of Nor Cal yak Angler comments/suggestions to bring with me regarding any re design of the Prowler 15. 

Bill- could you post it as a "sticky" perhaps so we can gather as much comment as possible?

Thanks

Allen

Stickified!

If you want to be one of the first to catch some real big game on the Big Game, I am getting two of the first run of this kayak heading down to Punta Colorada with me for our May trip. This is one of my group trips combined with a photo shoot for Ocean Kayak. I do have a couple of spots left on the trip if you want an excuse to see this kayak first.

thaks bill-

Jim- that boat will be perfect for long days and BIG fish down in BAJA!!

Allen